See, that’s just it. The business end has to actually be pointed at the target. That means aiming. Hitting with a shotgun isn’t as casually easy as all that. Go to a shooting range and try some snap shooting at close, stationary targets with a shotgun. Sprint 100 yards first or something to mimic the elevated heartrate and stress of being in a life-threatening situation. You won’t hit a blessed one of the targets if you don’t properly aim the damned thing.
Overpenetration with a rifle round would be a direct result of which round and which projectile are used. Something like an FMJ .308 is bound to overpenetrate. A .223 using one of the V-Max type varmint projectiles will almost certainly fragment and not overpenetrate. For that matter, typical military 55 grain FMJ 5.56 mm projectiles will fragment pretty reliably at home defense ranges. Also, forget the whole spread of shot idea. At indoor range, the shot string does not spread enough to be a significant factor. If you can’t hit your opponent with a rifle under those conditions, you won’t hit him with the shotgun. Please go to the Box o’ Truth site and see for yourself about spread and penetration.
Have you ever really fired a rifle or a shotgun? Removing the choke and/or shortening the barrel won’t matter at indoor ranges, as has been addressed over and over in this thread. A short shotgun is not superior to a carbine in terms of close-quarters maneuverability. A Marlin Camp Carbine, an M-1 Carbine, a Ruger Mini-14 or Police Carbine, or an AR-15 carbine is at least equal to , if not superior to, any 18" barreled shotgun for ease of maneuverability. At indoor ranges, any of them offers hit probability at least equal to a shotgun. Some, like the AR, have such excellent ergonomics that hit probability is actually higher. The pistol-gripped shotgun you linked to is more difficult to fire accurately than a conventionally stocked gun. For best results, it must be brought up and fired at shoulder level as if it did have a shoulder stock. Using full power buckshot loads requires a good tight grip or you end up getting belted in the face by it. Recoil is unpleasant as it must be absorbed by your hands. Pistol gripped guns have their place, but you will find that among serious users (ie the police and some military) they are nearly nonexistant. I owned one, a Mossberg 500, for a time. Other than playing Sarah Conner in T2 (yes, I know she had a Remington 870 with a folding stock), I had no use for it. The last shotgun I had for home defense was a conventionally stocked Winchester 1300. It was retired in favor of a handgun and a carbine.
Total horseshit. At approximately ten feet a rifle round hits an area slightly smaller than a dime. One round of Federal 12 gauge buckshot hits an area slightly smaller than a softball. The differences in a shaky hand is significant.
And since I never suggested that one needn’t aim with a shotgun, you taking my post out of context is driving me crazy. Don’t just read the post. Make certain you understand it before you respond.
I don’t base my decisions on matters of self defense on what might go over good in court. The very fact that I loaded bird shot in the chamber first is a sound argument for my desire to preserve life as much as possible.
Actually, I have done just that! With a shotgun, pistol, and carbine. Ran to the target area, and fired at a pop-up target at approx 20 yards. My results:
Pistol (Glock 22) - Fired three times, aiming as properly as I could. Only 1 shot hit, somewhere off in the shoulder area and nowhere near center of mass.
Carbine (Ruger Mini 14) - Fired three times, aiming properly as I could (shoulder sighted). All three shots hit, only one in center mass.
Shotgun (Mossberg 500, short barrel, with stock) - Fired once, aiming from HIP, just pointing the barrel in the general direction of the target. The majority of the shot placed in the center mass area.
Repeated this three times, with about the same results.
You make some good points although I don’t completely agree. Even if the carbine has just as good as a chance of hitting the target as the shotgun, based on my experiences I still feel that the shotgun is the better choice for a homeowner. I’m not gun expert and I don’t have a significant amount of rangetime. As I explained above, I had better performance with the shot gun. Much better than with the pistol, and marginally better than with the rifle. I still feel that a shotgun is about as point and shoot as you can get with the weapon. Hitting somebody with a shotgun IS casually easy as that, in my experience. There is a big difference between pointing and aiming. If you can’t at least POINT your weapon at the target in a stressful situation, then you are just SOL. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I also want to say that anybody considering buying a fiream for home defense should not make a decision based on what they read in this thread alone. Please DO take a firearms safety course, learn how to properly care and operate firearms and try a variety of types until you find something that suits YOU.
I’ve owned plenty and I have one now. It really isn’t that difficult to operate. I’ll admit an AR-15 is easier to maneuver than an 18" barreled shotgun, but you are comparing two extremes here to make your point. You give me that Mossberg 500 and you take the AR-15, then we’ll play around in the cramped confines of a typical home. You wouldn’t stand much of a chance against someone skilled with a shotgun (like me–and I’m not talking about Counter Strike either).
No, for best results, it should be mounted on a tripod, but I fail to see your point. If you can’t hit a target ten feet away with a shotgun at waste level, then you shouldn’t own one. Shaky or not.
I have S&W SW99 right next to the shotgun and I’ll go for the shotgun every time.
I disagree; 4” is not a significant enough spread to really make any difference. And 4” was the largest spread. The tightest was only 1-3/4”, next was 2” then 2-3/4. At 12 feet not 10.
Sure, it’ll make a little difference. It’s hardly worth noting though. And certainly not worth making a big deal out of like some people do.
What I’m getting at is that far to many people think that a shotgun is the magical answer to hitting a target. At close distances, the spread is just not large enough to make much of a difference.
And you could say the same thing about a rifle.
Anyway, Scumpup has pretty much hit all the pertinent points.
Once the discussion devolves to dickwaving like this, there is no point in further participation. Goodbye, all. Remember to practice regularly and be sure of your backstop.
It is very significant, and your argument is highly deceptive. If you agree that a point of entry for a rifle round averages about the size of a dime (which is being very generous) A 4" spread at 12’ will hold the equivalent of twenty-four rifle rounds! This 4" spread continues to expand as the target is further and further away. What if you are firing down a long hallway into a large room at about 25’ away? Your spread starts to expand greatly. This is not a ‘little difference that’s hardly worth noting’. It is a substantial difference. It is the difference between a hit or a miss.
I am not suggesting that a shotgun is a magical weapon, but I am attempting to impress upon you and others that are a part of this discussion that to equally compare a rifle round to the damage area caused by a shot shell at 10’ or more is absurd.
Whatever. I was simply illustrating a point. Rifle rounds are dangerous in confined spaces because you never know what is on the other side of a wall (which applies to shotguns as well), and you certainly may not know what is on the outside of your house and across the street (usually does not apply to a shotgun but certainly to a high powered round like a 30.06). This is the essence of my argument. A rifle is not an ideal weapon for home security, especially one where several family members are sharing the same house. Sure a shot round will penetrate a wall, but will it penetrate two? Three? the outer wall and into the street? A rifle round can and a rifle round’s mass is smaller than a handgun anyway so why is a rifle even in this discussion? A rifle is good for dropping a target at a great distance or in any situation where a high energy round is a necessity. It is not designed for home defense.
Let’s throw a little math into this. I figure, on myself, the center of mass, the part of the body you’re trying to hit, is about 1ft x 2ft. An inch or so in from each side of my chest, from my hips to my shoulders. 12in x 24in = 288sq in.
Assuming a 4" diameter spread, that gives us 2" on each side, where a rifle/pistol shot would miss or graze, and a shotgun shot would hit the target area. 2" on each side is 4 additional inches total for each dimension. 16in x 28in = 448 sq in, a 55% increase in area.
You still have to aim, but you have a significantly increased target area.
These are the kind of statements that I object to. I think it is a bit irresponsible to make that comment to a person asking for advice about personal defense.
Also, I don’t personally know of any ranges that will let you practice with a shotgun, unless you’re shooting skeet. The shotguns being recommended here are the very last thing you would use on a skeet range. A person living in a big metro area may be out of luck unless they are willing to drive a bit, or own land, or has a friend that owns land where they can get practice with the gun.
I think that a gun neophyte is less likely to get proper training on a short barreled defensive shotgun than they could get on a carbine or pistol. And, because of the misnomers that a ‘shotgun will hit anything, is easier to aim, doesn’t penetrate walls, the racking sound scares people away’, a new shotgun owner may be less likely to pursue proper training. I’m not saying you made all those statements Euthanasiast, not at all, but others have and none of it is good advice for a new gun owner.
Now, a truce. A shotgun is a good defensive weapon. In many cases it is the best. However, it is not a cure all, and IMHO, I think that it will be easier for a new gun owner to get experience on a pistol, revolver or carbine.
Actually, I happen to agree with you 100% on this post. I don’t mean to suggest that the shotgun is the Swiss Army Knife of firearms, only to suggest that it is an effective tool in home defense.
I also happen to agree that no matter what firearm you own, you should seek training and advice from knowledgeable peers.
Most of us that respond to these gun posts have shot thousands and thousands of rounds.
I’ve been shooting for 35 years. But I don’t consider myself an expert on guns in any sense. I do believe that I know what is best for me. And tend to shy away from absolutes when it comes to recommending a gun for anyone. There are just too many variables.
Ringo has taken a very intelligent approach by getting exposure to many different firearms.
This is the one thing that I’m sure we can all agree on.
I was in my local sporting goods store yesterday picking up a new rifle, and I heard the hunting department salesman talking to another customer about the virtues of the shotgun, including the scary sound, the fact that you dont have to aim, and how it wont kill your neighbors by over-penetration. Plus he mentioned that his own shotgun is loaded with rock salt followed by slugs. :smack:
He probably doesn’t own a squirt pistol. Next to car salesmen, I’ve found gun clerks (at major outlets) to be some of the biggest blowhards in existance. I recall one telling me about his customized “full auto Desert Eagle” and another boasting of his nitroglycerin-tipped “Devastator” rounds that “I got from an FBI buddy of mine.” Uh-huh.
I had a very strange thing happen to me in the small town liquor store that I frequent. Next to the liquor store is a bait/gun store. They are owned, and run by the same people. Sometimes, if you go into the liquor store, you have to wait for someone from the gun store to take your money.
At the time, my wife was thinking about a pistol for her self. I went into gun store to check out a .38 SW Lady Smith. I though it may be something for my Wife.
They didn’t have one at the gun store. Fine. Whatever.
I went to the liquor store and the women that was running the cash register had heard that I was interested in the LadySmith. She pulls one out of her hand bag, unloads it and hands it/thrusts it to me.
So, I find myself holding a weapon in a liquor store right on the other side of the cash register while the owner of the gun is trying to tell me the virtues of it.
Bing.
This is really bad. This is a really, really bad thing.
I guess I was too stunned not to not take the weapon, in hindsight, I should have just walked away.
It felt like I was holding the weapon for an hour, but in fact, I immediately put it back down on the counter, backed away, and suggested that she recover it.
People do stupid things all the time. Our best bet is to not do them with guns.
