If everybody gets a bachelor's degree...

I’m in the boat w/ Tamerlane, Cranky, & Scule (sounds like a great law practice, doesn’t it!).

The misconception inherent to the OP is the assumption that the pursuit of collegiate education is essentially a mechanism to obtain employment at a particular monetary level. The fact that so much of our culture has bought into this fallacy is tragic. Education in general is simply the acquisition of knowledge. It is only what is done with the knowledge that has any relation to economics.

To respond to specific points in the OP:

  1. The requirement set by an employer for a particular level of educational attainment is simply an accepted benchmark for assessing the relative level of knowledge an applicant has obtained. Your assertion that a bachelor’s would become the diploma of the future is valid, and perfectly reasonable. Again, since the acquisition of knowledge is the only purpose of education, and a degree is simply a broadly recognized indicator of level of acquisition, there is no direct relationship between education and economic status save what is imposed by the standards of a potential employer.

  2. I’m not aware of anyone making a claim that higher education is an economic panacea. Universal college education is an inherently good thing simply because knowledge is better than ignorance. Knowledge empowers people irrespective of economics - it is only what they do with the knowledge that can be assigned economic value, and those assignments are arbitrary at best and fluctuate with the needs of society.

  3. Last but not least, college is hardly the only, or in some cases the best way, to acquire knowledge. Experience is a type of knowledge in and of itself. So is physical ability and craftsmanship. An athlete in training, a woodworker apprentice, a poet hitchhiking across Europe, and an undergraduate at State U. are all after the same thing.

Go re-read my original post IN ITS ENTIRETY instead of just cherry-picking what suits your prejudices.

I stated that there are other benefits to college education than merely making money, but that those who thought that universal college education would lead to universal monetary prosperity were quite wrong.

Here, I’ll quote myself for you:

You can even go up to the top of the thread to make sure that this is what I originally wrote.

So much for the vaunted strength of the 'liberal" education. Evidently, many of its recipients are unable to even read a message beyond what they want it to say. I guess the ability of a “liberal” education to instill “reasoning” ability is greatly overrated.

I’m not arguing that a university degree of any sort lacks value. Of course a person is more employable with any degree than without one.

I’m specifically speaking of people of little means, who seem to think that borrowing money, bankrupting their families, and starting out life with a huge mountain of debt just for the sake of getting a degree is a smart thing to do.

Education doesn’t require a university. If I were poor (and I was), I would study something that had a good shot at giving me a solid career, while also broadening my education. The difference between University and vocational school is that University teaches you a profession with the recognition that breath of knowledge is a good thing for a professional. So even engineering student have to take some arts courses. That’s fine, and I agree with it.

But I know a lot of people who have almost ruined their lives because they never considered the cost/benefit of university as compared to the alternatives. Now they’re broke, in debt up to their eyeballs, and their arts degrees have gotten them assistant managerships at the local Radio Shack for $28,000 a year.

Remember, the cost of university isn’t just the tuition. It’s also opportunity cost. Someone who becomes a carpenter at 18 will have four years of income, worth maybe $100,000, and be a journeyman by the time the other person graduates college. As a journeyman, that Carpenter might be making $45,000, while the University grad is out trying to find an entry-level job.

I’m not saying that people shouldn’t take arts degrees. I’m saying they should sit down first and be realistic about how much it costs, and what kind of career it will get them, and decide accordingly. I believe there are too many people today making bad choices in this regard. And that has a compounding effect - as more and more people seek degrees, the value of the degree will diminish as a job requirement. In the meantime, colleges are becoming overcrowded, and tuition is skyrocketing.

There are alternatives for those who want an arts degree. For example, gaining a primary job skill first. Take a 2-year engineering technology program, work in the field for a year or two, and then go to university with some money saved up, some job experience, and a chance at a high-paying summer job in your field.

Much of what you say makes sense, Sam. At the same time, I must disagree entirely with the conclusions that you draw regarding the social value of liberal arts degrees.

I am currently finishing my PhD in art history. And, yes, I realize that I will be in a mountain of debt by the time I graduate. I know that I will spend most of my working life paying off my student loans. I am also aware of that having a PhD to teach art history or to work in the upper levels of an art museum is pretty much a given–so it brings me up to the same level as my competition, as nearly all viable candidates for any of the jobs I’m interested in are going to have PhD anyway.

I have also had a taste of the experience that Phlosphr describes above. With a masters degree, I’m already overqualified for most jobs outside academia and the museum world. While I’m writing my dissertation, I’ve been working a full-time job at the university’s library, and I’m just getting over $20,000 a year. I’m finding that I can barely scrape by with my take-home pay, and I know that it would be very difficult and financially-draining to be paying off my student loans on such an income.

So, in many ways, I fit perfectly your description of people who have spent lots of money and time on a non-practical degree, all while stupidly forgoing opportunities in fields that don’t require college degrees.

But, you know what? I don’t want to be a carpenter. Or an engineer. Or a doctor. Or any of those fields that you consider to be socially productive. Because the subject that I’ve been studying (no, it’s not Mesopotamian architecture) is something that I love and that I find fulfilling–not just for personal development, as you implied in your first post–I enjoy teaching art history and the interaction that it invites between my students and me. I feel like my classes have a real impact on my students, even if art history is not their major.

It’s not the most financially rewarding career–I’m definitely not in art history for the money. But I reject the notion that it’s not socially productive. Those students who take anything from my class will have learned more than just the dates and names of dead artists and crumbling buildings/statues/paintings. They will have learned a new way of understanding the world’s cultures through the art objects that those cultures make.

This, to me, is what makes art history interesting, and is also what makes it relevant to anybody with an interest in humanity: the stuff that I study and teach is the very stuff that documents what people have believed and how their cultures have worked throughout history. I honestly believe that most people would benefit from a little knowledge of ancient Mesopotamian history, if only because it will help them understand the role that Iraq has played throughout history–that is surely relevant to contemporary events.

And while all of this may strike you as idealistic, Utopian thoughts with no relation to practical things like making a buck, consider this: art is a huge part of the economy. When tourists visit a major city, they will almost invariably go to the art museum–some do so because they feel a vague cultural obligation (“you *have[/] to go to the Louvre in Paris…”) but many others do so because they’re genuinely interested in learning about art. So art museums (and theaters, and concerts, and films…) are a huge tourist draw, and I believe that this only proves that art has a real meaning to many people–and that it does have social value.

And, so, while I appreciate your advice, I must respectfully disagree with your characterization of arts degrees as not contributing anything really useful to society (or that graduates with such degrees are essentially a drag on society’s productivity). My belief is that art does make a very valuable, nay, invaluable contribution to society, and this is what motivates me to pursue it as a career–even though I know I will never be rich or famous.

I’m glad you disagree with that, because it’s not what I said. Look, if you want to pursue an arts degree with the notion of working towards a Ph.D and working in that field, then more power to you. If you want to incur a mountain of debt and live in poverty for much of your working life to pay it off, that’s your choice. I salute you.

I’m talking about people who decide they need university to ‘enrich’ them, and have no plans to go past an undergrad degree. They don’t know what they want to do in life, but everyone goes to university, right? So they take out a mountain of debt, take a degree in something, anything, and then four years later find themselves $50,000 in debt and with a degree that won’t get them a job.

There are just too many people doing that. Furthermore, I find that many of them don’t get very good educations. I know an awful lot of university educated people that are bloody ignorant. They don’t really care about their subjects, and they take the easist courses they can find and spend four years partying. Then they get a degree, decide they are ‘educated’, and never pick up a book again.

On the other hand, some of the most educated people I know never went to college. As a result they’ve been trying to ‘catch up’ their knowledge on their own for 20 years, never realizing that they long ago passed the level of knowledge of your typical undergrad.

But really, that’s another issue. The main point I’m making is that today young people treat college as something automatic. It’s just what you do when you get out of high school. That’s fine for rich people whose parents can pay the way, but for poor people, especially those with no particular aptitude for or interest in acedemia, it can be a mistake.

Sam, it looks like we basically agree on a lot of things. I said something earlier in this thread that is similar to what you’re saying–that some people go to college because it’s “what they should do” with no regard for what’s sensible or practical.

You’ve also highlighted a very real trend: students from lower-income families tend to shy away from liberal arts degrees, for the reasons you stated (you didn’t mention a trend, you mentioned concern that it was going the other way, but hey, whatever. :)). It’s a judgment call whether that’s a good or bad thing. They’re smart that they are not risking a tenuous career track while acquiring loads of debt. However, some people do worry that this is perpetuating an system of “intellectual elites.” That is, only the wealthier are going for the prestige non-vocational degrees, and are going on to get advanced degrees.

I’m amazed that I agree with Dogface.

It used to be that a Ph.D was the pinnacle. A few decades ago, if you had just earned a Ph.D you were considered qualified for most tenure-track positions. Now, scientists have another hurdle to jump through in order to get a “real job”–several years of post-doctoral experience. Why? Because the number of Ph.D in the market has swelled over the past couple of decades. Candidates aren’t considered “smart enough” unless they have done a successful post-doc.

The same thing is happening in regards to undergraduate degrees.

As soon as a critical mass of degree-holders has been met, the bar raises. I’m just hoping I’m settled in a career before it raises some more.

Ah. Sorry, I didn’t realize you were limiting your observations to undergraduate degrees (need to start paying attention to the thread topic better–“bachelor’s degree” is in the friggin’ title, after all :smack:)

What gets my goat is the idea that a liberal arts degree is essentially useless or, worse, actually counter-productive to society. I’ve heard this from many sources before, and I’ve always vigorously disagreed with it–which is why I went on a bit of a rant on that particular issue.

It is true that for many disciplines, a bachelor’s won’t really enhance your career options. However, is this really only true for the liberal arts and not for the sciences? I’ve had friends who got their bachelor’s in science degrees, and in their current jobs, they’re not doing anything directly related to their field of study.

It seems to me that there are many college majors–some in the liberal arts but not all–that really require graduate degrees if you’re going to do anything in your chosen field. Whenever I’ve spoken with an undergraduate who is considering declaring a major in art history, I try to emphasize this point: if you’re going to do anything directly related to a degree in art history, be prepared to go to grad school.

Sorry again for any misinterpretation of your posts…

[slinks back to writing dissertation]

I wouldn’t exactly say a liberal arts degree won’t enhance your career options. It’s more like it doesn’t enhance them as much as other degrees do. There are plenty of jobs that require a bachelor’s degree, period. Doesn’t matter what it’s in. Someone with a bachelor’s in art history is as qualified as someone with a bachelor’s in biology. But there are other jobs that require either a specific bachelors degree or one from a specific group- for example, my job requires a bachelor’s in a social science. Art history or English won’t do. Pharmaceutical companies may only hire those with degrees in biology as sales reps, or only those with chemistry degrees to work in the labs. The qualifications to be hired as a food inspector may include having a bachelor’s degree in certain fields- biology,chemistry, enviornmental health, etc.
I think that’s where the difference is- the biology graduate and the art history graduate can both get the “any degree” jobs. But the biology graduate also qualifies for those jobs which either require or prefer specific degrees which include biology. I don’t think (and I could be wrong) that there are nearly as many jobs that require or prefer specific degrees in the liberal arts as there are that require or prefer specific degrees in the sciences- even though the drug sales rep who had to have a biology degree is not really working in the field of biology.

I know at least one friend who (I believe) did just that. At least the last I heard she hadn’t benefitted from her college degree, but she did have a mountain of debt.

And my own experience in art school–I went there because I was about to bust–I needed to learn more. I loved art. But some of my schoolmates seemed to be getting an art education just to get an education in “something.” I never saw them demonstrate any passion, interest, or even a bare amount of talent for art. And some of them looked down on me as if I were a peasant because I was so passionate and enthusiastic about everything. (But hey–the teachers liked me. I was paying attention and gave a damn!)

Sorry, getting side-tracked here, but when I encounter someone who says that they have a degree in art, I don’t automatically assume that they are in any way active in art, or artistic. But of course there are many (hopefully many!) people with art degrees that have really enjoyed their education and put it to good use. But in my experience it’s not an automatic “given” that if a person has a degree in art, they are “artistic.”

I know of some people with art degrees who never (or hardly ever) paint or draw or do anything creative, and haven’t in years.

I find this attitude extremely sad. The notion that knowledge for knowledge’s sake is only for the rich…

:frowning:

Personally, I think we’re all better off when more people are EDUCATED. Not just financially.

I am going to agree with Sam Stone on this issue.

The problem with so many people seeking any form of degree from B.A./B.S. to Masters or Ph.D., aren’t doing so becasue they have any real passion for their subject or because it will in fact make them more qualified for any position or career, but because they believe it will give them an edge in actually getting selected for a job.

A B.A. teaches you to think? To that, I call bull-shit. I just spent some time last weekend down at Colorado College, a somewhat competitive, very liberal liberal arts college in Colorado Springs with my sister, and we spent some time with a group of students hanging on over the summer in apartments before school started up again in the fall. This particular group was attempting some sort of “Political Plan of Action”, distributing flyers around campus regarding the evils of sweatshop labor. Everyone there seemed (including my sister) passionate about the importance of ending this horrible abuse of human rights, the dignity of life, etc. I kept my mouth shut for most of it, but over lunch, I started some conversation with a student and asked her what she figured were some viable alternatives for the employees of these factories if they closed up shop and moved production back to the states. Surprise, suprise, she had never really considered the possibility that working for low wages in a factory could actually be a step up from other options. She also never seemed to have heard of the Concept of Purchasing Power Parity. I aksed her if a dollar a day might go farther in Indonesia than the United Stated. Her reaction: “Isn’t that what exchange rates are for?” Right, exchange rates always accurately reflect current monetary conditions for both the person on the street in Jakarta and in San Francisco.

I don’t think that Liberal Arts Colleges really do a lot to promote real critical thought, the ability to carry out research effectively, the ability to write persuassively, etc. Also, question which is cause and effect. Do smart kids go to college, or do colleges actually make kids smarter. I tend to think more the former than the latter for most liberal arts degrees. The point of this thread is that now that having a B.A. or B.S. has become less exclusive, doesn’t the test of having one or not begin to fail to distinguish between the smart kids and the not so smart kids? And since the degrees had limited actual economic value in the first place, why do we want to encourage more and more kids to pursue these degrees?

A couple of years ago I asked a man in his late 20’s with a college degree how many continents there were. My point was Europe not being a continent.

He said TWELVE!!!

That stopped me in my tracks. Plenty of schools are diploma mills wasting students time and taking their money. Corporations requiring degrees for jobs that don’t need them are being ridiculous. They should start creating aptitude tests because some people with college degrees are complete dummies.

AND DON’T REALIZE IT.

Reminds me of the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

Dal Timgar

In a perfect world, every 18-year-old would know:

a) what type of training was going to give them a solid career in four years.
b) which of those things that might provide a solid career were right for them to pursue
c) the actual value of their education in financial and philisophical terms.

We’re talking about KIDS making these decisions! Kids who aren’t old enough to have a BEER! They often choose liberal arts areas because they’re interested in them and they don’t possess clue numero uno what they want to do or what they’ll be doing in four years. Many of them are trying to choose among what THEY want, what will earn them big money, and what mom and dad want them to do.

I actually do think it’s too easy to get a degree in America. I think we’ve ended up with Harvard graduates standing next to junior college graduates, and both saying, “I earned my degree!” I’m sure you can get a terrific education at a lower priced school, I’m not suggesting that “high priced = better educated.” But I do hate to see degrees from schools with high entrance requirements and tough curriculum tossed into the same category as those that only require a high school diploma as a necessity to start earning a degree.

It IS amazingly easy to get a degree in this country. But it’s still quite difficult to get a GOOD education. That you have to pay for and work for. And I think you’ll find that those who manage to get that education (and not just the degree) are those who stand out as successful in general.

L

They aren’t lumped together, though. Your resume includes stuff like where you went to school, your major, how long you spent in school, your GPA, and what kind of degree you earned.

Brilliance will shine through whether or not someone went to an Ivy League or a state school. Lord knows I’ve met dumb folks from both camps. So I don’t think the school snobs have anything to fear.

People dont seem to consider that higher education isnt only about getting a better Curriculum or better chances at getting a job. Going thru the experience and having contact with the university environment by itself can be good for a person. Even if they do go on to be plumbers or carpenters.

More educated people have less problems related to health… have more chances of voting better… might try to open their own business with more sucess. It might be wasteful of money… but then money isnt the only thing that counts.

Of course ideally people would get only the education necessary to their crafts... but that would mean that changes in the economy would be hard since you wouldnt have "extra" diplomas lying around. The US in part had the post WWII boom due to the generous help GI's got in terms of higher education... it was a major financial load at the time... but in my opinion it made all the difference when the US economy grew. 

Newsweek has an article about Germany’s educational system that tracks lower class pupils into crafts training instead of higher education. This is holding back Germany badly. The percentage of high school students going to University in Germany is the lowest in the EU. 30%. In comparison Finland sends 71% and is a high tech center. UK sends 45% and the USA 43% as a comparison.

<hijack>
Skopo! I’m a PhD kid in AH, too! What’s your area? Something Greek? (I’m doing N Renaissance)
</hijack>

The question is not whether or not University is a good thing. Of course it is.

The question is whether it offers enough value to everyone to warrant starting out life with $50K-$100K in debt, and four years off of their working careers.

That’s a much tougher question.

Depends on how you define “value”, Samb.

Even if I do nothing but dig ditches the rest of my life, I still have that education, and I’m DAMN glad I got it.

I think that all degrees carry with it the asumption that you have learned the material and can use that knowledge in the real world. Generally, people in HR depts around the world assume that someone with a BA is more likely to have more knowledge on a subject, developed reasoning and logic skills, and the ability to do something with it. But I believe none of those things can be proven just by the piece of paper.

I see my BA as a certificate that shows I have pursued a deeper knowledge into a subject. My reasoning, logic, ability to learn more on any subject, and my ability to express my thoughts is something I still have to prove. I feel that these skills can only be shown on-the-job. If I can’t do the job I get fired (in a perfect world).

So even if everyone had a Bachelor’s it would not change the fact
if you can do the job or not.