Look, Friedo, if it bothers you so much to read yet another thread about gay people, why the hell are you still here???!!!
Go away! Go far far away! What kind of hardon do you have for me, anyway?
Will you please get lost so the gay and gay-positive people can actually discuss the OP? PLEASE??!
oldscratch
If they brought up the fact that they were fat continuously and repetively, yes I would.
If someone started 30 threads about why they love pizza so much, then yes I would.
I don’t have a problem with gay people. I like gay people just fine. And I don’t like the term “lifestyle” either, because it is my belief that homosexuality is generally something outside of one’s control. What I do have a problem with is anyone who posts about the same thing over and over and over again. I thought this thread would be a funny rant, I open it, and it’s another bitch about how hard it is to be gay.
Well, that’s obviously ignorance on my part. I have always viewed “fag” as on-par with “nigger.” Therefore, I never use it. I don’t think I will start. I still don’t like the connotation.
Hastur
Don’t get your panties in a bundle. It was a question I asked out of ignorance. I don’t know if this answer satisfied me totally, either. It seems a fairly immature way of fighting hatred.
I never said I felt it was a taunt towards me; I was wondering what the general attitude among gay people was regarding the use of the word.
matt_mcl:
Because the discussion finally got interesting! 
**
I wasn’t ready to call you a bigot, but now I am, that or a dumbfuck. Your choice.
Matt has started 7 threads since you’ve been a member where he has brought up the fact that he is gay, let alone flaunted it. That’s less than one a month, and far less than the 30 you mentioned. I can name several straight people that bring up certain characteristics far more often than that. I won’t, cause I don’t have a problem with them, and don’t want to stomp on anyone.
So… you wanna tell us what your real problem with Matt is? Could it be he’s gay and doesn’t hide it? I’m thinking yes.
Poor matt. I feel for you, babe - I’ve gotten whined at for this more times than years you are alive.
C’mere, daddy’ll make you feel better… <smooches>
Esprix
I don’t get my ‘panties’ into a bundle, you trolling reaction starved imbecile. I don’t wear panties, because I’m not a woman or a crossdresser, but as your aim in that phrase was to denigrate, know that your pitiful attempt was unsuccessful.
Taking the power out of a word is post-modern and as far from immature as your posts are far from being mature.
Why don’t you move off to another thread, Needle Dick, the bug fucker, and leave people to have a discussion on something that impacts upon their lives. Your remarks are pathetic, insipid, and show your lack of education.
Why don’t you go bother your intellectual equals? I think somewhere there has to be a group of three year olds who are dying for an audience with you.
I think I’ll try and nimbly dodge the Friedo firestorm and proceed to address the OP, which I find fascinating.
I have to admit that as a gay guy who’s not femme, I’ve said some of the exact things railed against in the OP. I’m particularly chagrined to recall the phrase “if I wanted a woman I’d be straight” coming out of my mouth. Perhaps more than once. So, as I read this thread, and enjoyed the fireworks therein, I started thinking about what might have motivated this prejudice.
First of all, I came up with jealousy. On several counts, the first being visibility. When you’re visibly gay, I imagine, it’s easier to be honest with the people around you. It’s also easier to be found by guys who might be interested in you. Keeping a higher profile as a gay man also seems very honest, and I respect that honesty, but because of my nature, I can’t practice it.
There are also the other issues that matt brought up in his post, i.e., the idea that straight people tend to think that all queer guys are femme. Growing up in a society that has an enormous integral disrespect for feminine traits, (which I think describes American high schools pretty accurately) I developed a tendency to disassociate myself from guys displaying those traits. An immature attitude which I’ve held onto for too long.
So, I apologize. I’ll work on becoming less prejudiced in this regard. And I’m grateful for the opportunity to get rid of some of my ignorance.
That being said, maybe you should look at some of the prejudices involved in the OP.
Matt said:
“Look, honey, I didn’t decide to go into the gay business so I could just be another macho idiot who happens to listen to the Pet Shop Boys, OK?”
and…
“I did not come out of the closet and go through years of homophobic shit and become part of the gay liberation movement so that I could keep living how other people want me to live.”
Maybe some guys just aren’t femme naturally. I know it really isn’t me, it’s not the way I’d choose to act. Neither am I a steroid-pumping idiot muscle queen. I live how I choose to, regardless of stereotypes.
If you want me to have respect for your personal idiom, don’t start by assuming that I live the way I do because of peer pressure. From your post, it seems that you’re responding to contempt with more contempt. You want it to stop? Stop it yourself.
I think that I just might start a few threads declaring that I am a breeder, and what crappy issues that I have to deal with.
I have a family of seven, and do you know how resturants treat us when we go out to dinner? They make a big production about having to make arrangements for such a large party.
Making my lifestyle choice to be a breeder wasn’t hard for me but other people make me feel like I have over populated my little corner of thier world.
I think breeders need a catchy little phrase like “Were here were queer” Any suggestions let me know.
I can also be classified as Mary, or fish. Do I find it offencive? Nope, I just reply with whatever Nelly, or Nancy. Or whatever fits the bill.
People are too quick to be offended by things.
I have seen a few people pick out Matt and Sqrl, but lately Andygirl has been bringing up different aspects of what is going on in her neck of the woods and that is fine. Is it because lesbians are easier to accept than faggots?
And why is that? Easier for men to think of two women together than two men?
Most of you know about how I was raised, and my life style, so for me it is a norm. I truly hope that my children grow up to live the way they want to and that people loving other people no matter sex, race, or religion becomes a norm for their generation.
And Matt, I think you are very right about those in the gay community who get what they want lose sight of the big picture and are happy with the way things are in their life so it must be all okay with everyone else. It is human nature really. But it is sad when there are so many other issues for the community.
My husband says that I live in a fantasy world since I want everybody to be happy and get along. In a way he is right that I am unrealistic. People are different, and sometimes that is good, and sometimes that is bad.
If we were all alike the world would be boring, but when we hate people for their differences that is when it all goes bad.
Andygirl, congrats on your award!
Oh no, Veb-not at all, I just wanted to make sure that I was being clear.
For what it’s worth, matt, my guess is that maybe these guys aren’t all that secure with themselves. Not necessarily their sexuality, it could be just plain ordinary low self-esteem. It might make them feel a little bit better if they put you down. Or else they MIGHT feel uncomfortable in their own sexuality, that they’re not “real men” (as bullshit as that sounds, I’m just pulling this out of my arse), and that they need to be all “macho” and “cool.”
Of course, I really don’t understand men either!
[sarcasm for the humor impaired]
Men! Can’t live with 'em, can’t shoot 'em! 
[/sarcasm for the humor impaired]
Oh, and btw, fag can also be a cigarette; faggot is a bundle of sticks tied together; dyke (or rather dike) is a sort of clay dam, I THINK; queer can be peculiar, or strange; gay also means happy and cheerful.
Also, I don’t think this was a post saying, “woe is me, how difficult it is to be homosexual!” More like, “Dammit, what’s up with people always complaining about my personality! I like who I am, and how I act, dress, my interests, etc etc. Why do people keep saying, ‘you should be like this!’” It would be the same as someone saying to a tomboy why don’t you dress more feminine, or to a bookwarm-why don’t you play more sports and stop reading so damn much?
(I’m guessing…is that what you’re complaining about matt? if not, I appologize)
(Esprix-not who’s your daddy! Blechy!)
*sorry, just gives me an image of all cradle robbing fatass boozers who hit on young chicks…icky!)
Thank goddess…
Just because of little ol’ me? Well, heavens. I’m impressed.
You are quite right, and I’m annoyed with myself over that.
No, no, that’s it exactly. Very cogent of you.
Hey, 'sprix can rob my cradle any day of the week - and I believe the correct term in this case is “chicken”.
<Devil’s advocate hat: ON>
Clue me in: who are they bitching to about effeminate guys? Are they walking up to you and expressing this? Don’t they have a right to be attracted to and pursue whatever type of men they want to?
<Devil’s advocate hat: OFF>
**Kricket wrote:
I think breeders need a catchy little phrase like “Were here were queer” Any suggestions let me know.**
How about:
We’re Here! We’re Straight! We Procreate!
[COOL HAND LUKE MODE]
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
[/COOL HAND LUKE MODE]
It is like this… there are some gay men who are butch because that is their nature. There is another segment that is butch because they fear the criticism and condemnation of the straight world as well as from the butch men they find attractive. This is where the phrase: “See Tarzan, Hear Jane.” comes from.
Now… just like closeted gay men and lesbians can be homophobic in public so others don’t think they are gay, nelly men trying to be butch will do the same.
What it boils down to is ascribed gender roles, which are artificial social constructs. Some people think that even in a subsection of the population that is often hated, it is more important to belong and surrender to the hive mind of conformity than marching to the beat of a different drummer.
<GEORGE KENNEDY SQUINTING & STRAINING TO UNDERSTAND MODE: ON>
I think I understand…HOWEVER…
…in this case, wouldn’t the “subsection of a population that is often hated” that is trying to march to it’s own beat be the butch guys? Don’t the femme guys represent the “establishment” (for lack of a better term) of the gay men’s population? Aren’t the femme guys the ones who are surrendering to the “hive mind of conformity” by acting…well, femme? It seems to me that the OP’s criticism can easily be reversed; couldn’t you say that there is a segment of the gay population that feels butch but acts femme because they fear the condemnation of the gay community? Do I have my head wedged completely up my ass on this topic??
<GEORGE KENNEDY SQUINTING & STRAINING TO UNDERSTAND MODE: OFF>
Actually, no. The gay community at large has moved away from anything feminine for a long time. Men avoid feminine mannerisms like the plague, and attempt to avoid femme men as well.
Femme men are NOT the establishment. They are pariahs. Drag queens even more so.
Being butch and acting butch are two different things. But… acting butch when you aren’t is just fucking hysterical to watch.
Sort of the whole men trying to act like big macho idiots to prove something huh?
Sounds like a lot of straight men I know…
I remember reading when Jeff Stryker was the hot new stud in the porn industry, and his first year out of the gate he won the porn equivalent of the Oscar for best new talent. So here’s this muscled, tough-talking, big-dicked guy comes up to the mic to accept his award, opens his mouth… and yards of chiffon come pouring out. Turns out he’s a big nelly, but can pull of the “Ooo, yeah, you like that big cock, don’tcha?” bit on screen.
Butch in the streets, femme in the sheets… (The opposite, of course, being true for me. ;))
Esprix
Freyr that is great! I love it!
I am still trying to think up my big thread about poor hetero people and how everybody needs to feel sorry for me.
Get used to it people, Were here, were straight, we procreate!
And I think the butch guys bitch because they got nothing better to do. And Matt if it makes you feel better think of it this way. Doesn’t bitching make them a bit femme?
I don’t mind butch guys, as I mentioned. I don’t even mind femme guys pretending to be butch guys, such as Esprix so hysterically described. (What an image, 'sprix! :D) No, what I don’t like is butch guys being down on femme guys. I’ve had this shit since I came out and it is working my last nerve about now.
And where is my invite to this gay bacchanalia?
Matt is exactly right about nelly guys being pariahs in the gay world. In every personal ad I’ve seen, the words, “No fats or fems,” are included. I think that, in part, it stems from the insecurity in addressing being homosexual and the definition of masculinity in our society. Certainly, we look down on gay men as not being “real” men, so to affirm their own masculinity, it becomes necessary for butch guys to denigrate the effeminate gay men. By stigmatizing the effeminate, butch wanna-bes reject the sissyness in themselves.
What people seem to ignore is that we, whether gay or straight, all have an admixture of masculine and feminine traits. Look at Quentin Crisp. He came out as a flaming, rouged creature in 1920s London, when homosexuality was illegal. It tok a lot of strength and toughness, both “masculine” traits, to have the courage to be publicly out in a prejudiced era.
As PLDennison, the only Doper who’s met me, can affirm, I’m a masculine regular guy. I don’t try to be, it’s just my nature. Yet, big ol’ butch me was in Borders looking through the bargain CD bin and I came across Dionne Warwick’s Greatest Hits. I said, “Oooh, I LOVE her!” and then started laughing at myself for having such a queen moment. But I’m cool with that. I can listen to Tool and Bad Religion, and then sing along to Annie, Get Your Gun. I’m comfortable in how I define myself as a gay man, and that helps me love and embrace nelly gay men. I think it’s the gay men who who feel self-loathing who lash out at the queens among us.
I also wonder if the hypermasculinity of the leather crowd isn’t just a desperate overcompensation for liking show tunes and Prada bags?
As for Friedo: dude, we are not “flaunting,” we are just being ourselves. When a gay man or woman acts like a striaght person does, having pictures of one’s mate on one’s desk or talking about buying a house together, one is accused of “flaunting one’s sexuality.” I, for one, choose to live out of the closet and not stay hidden from view like a mad aunt in the attic(Hey, Mr. Rochester!). If you don’t like reading about gay life, then don’t read the freakin’ thread that has “gay” in the title!
Matt, you go, boy! There are guys who will see you as the jewel you are!