I’ve said it before - there’s a difference between “butch” or “masculine” and “straight-acting.”
Esprix
It seems to me (and maybe Matt_mcl can clarify this for me) that two different things are being conflated here: sexuality and “masculinity” or “femininity”. Is it possible that some of the dislike of “femmes” by some gay people is just a reflection of the dislike of “effemninate” men by some members of the population at large? I guess my question, Matt, is, are you complaining that some gay people are critical of effemenate men or are you complaining that society is…does the fact that the people being critical are gay change the way you see the criticism?
You’re more or less right, Cap’n. When it’s gay people themselves who are bitching out the femmes, however, I feel it’s twisting the knife. That’s because you’d think that a group that’s lived with oppression would be a lot more sensitive about the same thing, especially within their own community; also because alternate gender expressions such as being femme or campy are an important part of gay history (“Drag queens fought for you at Stonewall!”)
Apparently you missed this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=56469
Is it just me, or is this line, “Only this time, leave Jesus out of it - he’s not my type!” just BEGGING to be used as a sig?
Hey Matt, do you ever read any of the works of John Rechy? (makes similar points very well in his fiction)
No, I didn’t miss the thread, but it is just one more example of not getting included in the SDMB Gay Club.
Does anyone lust after me? No.
Does anyone dream about me? No.
Does anyone flirt with me? No.
You guys get to have all the fun, and I’ll just sit in this corner and mope.
Over in Esprix’s Gay Guy thread Deacons Trucked, Sqrl’s bearcub-in-training, commented:
I responded, making reference to this thread:
Insofar as I’m concerned, that’s the bottom line on this. I enjoy being precisely who I am, and I’m not answerable to anybody for failing to meet their expectations of what I “ought” to be for my age, sex, race, etc. And I don’t think Matt or Deac need to either.
[Fundy voice]
Well, the explanation there is pretty simple. You see, Jesus expects commitment, and these guys chose the gay lifestyle to avoid getting into a committed relationship. So no wonder He’s not their type!
[/Fundy voice]
Unfortunately, those discriminated against aren’t always tolerant of other people.
One possible factor that could apply is this. For whatever reason, gay people have been stereotyped as effeminate or campy by the larger society. A number of gay people, especially those who are not effeminate or campy, are trying to fight that stereotype in the popular culture, and maybe when they see gay people acting campy or effeminate, they think to themselves “That’s a step backwards”, or “They’ve just let themselves be brainwashed by homophobic propaganda”. Some of the hostility might come from there. Again, I’m not excusing the behavior/attitude, just speculating on a possible cause.
“Jesus loves you!”
“Not without a condom he doesn’t, honey!”
Re: Deacons Trucked comment in ATGGIII…
I dunno about anybody else, but I’m hiding behind a desk and watching out for matt & his lavender uzi…
Could it also be like the old idea in the African-American community-ridiculing those who supposedly, “act white”, whatever the hell THAT means?
ROTFL at matt’s quote…
After reading through this thread, a couple of thoughts:
Back when my son was just a few months old, someone taped me interacting with him. On looking at the tape, I was shocked at how feminine all of my gestures were. Still can’t get over it. So here’s one straight man who could easily pass for a flaming queen.
After reading through it, I talked with my wife. We have quite a few gay friends, and I have relatives - one a cousin of mine, with whom I am very close - who is lesbian. I asked my wife about the topic of this thread. She said, yeah, that the guys do indeed look down on the flaming ones, and that they think transsexuals are scum. Scum!
Yeesh. Surprised does not begin to do justice to my reaction. It’ll take me a few years to get over that one, too.
And thinking over all the issues of The Advocate and Out that I’ve read, it’s true that they don’t seem to spend much time thinking about gay youth. And it occurs to me, now that my son is 11 and I have no idea at all which way he’ll swing, that this issue may prove to be of more than academic interest to yours truly. Given that my son has been brought up to be completely comfortable around gay people, he’ll probably wind up having a problem even if he’s straight, just from hanging out with gays when he gets to high school and having no idea that someone out there might object to it.
Thanks for the thread, matt. You’ve given me more than enough things to chew over and watch out for in the next few years.
AS A GAY MAN AND A PERSON IN GENERAL, I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO:
…have no ability to relate to femme gay guys, and therefore I have no desire to be around them…just like much of the black “community”
…be annoyed and disgusted with whomever I choose
…wonder if the femme persona isnt always “just who they are”, but instead, a result of them doing what they need to in order to fit their own definition of “gay”
…be completey wrong in the above notion
…be completely disgusted and confused over the oh-so-common statement “being a fag happens to be an important part of my being, something that shapes a great deal of my life”
…have no concept of WHO ONE SLEEPS WITH being such a major force in one’s life
…want to say to those people, “GET A LIFE”, but not do so out of embarrassment over my own prejudices
…have my own prejudices, however shallow or generally disagreeable they may be
…like who I am, including the fact that “gay” isnt an integral part of my life
…be proud of myself as an individual, NOT proud of belonging to a coalition whose concept of “community” comes only from who they love or put their loins on
…therefore, profess no interest in having my life revolve around my un-chosen membership in “The Brown-Haired People”, “The Short Men of the World”, or "PWNSOS (People With No Sense Of Smell) aka ‘Anosmics Anonymous’ "
…absolutely DESPISE the word “queer”
…relate to friedo, Torgo and mrvisible more than matt_mcl
Rant and bitch about me, and bring on the lavender uzi if you will…but just like all the gay people (myself included) who say, “I am who I am”…
I AM WHO I AM, and I am allowed to not enjoy or relate to certain people.
And be aware that I am NOT happy with my prejudices, they are one of the few things I dislike about myself…but nevertheless, they are mine and I am allowed to have them.
And laugh if you must, but I dont consider them to be “blind” prejudices, such as hating someone solely because of their skin color or their sexual orientation. If I met a really effeminate gay man who I could relate to, I would love it. Even my boyfriend has more effeminate traits than I usually go for and he places more importance on his homosexuality than I do, but I love him and my mind has opened significantly since I have known him.
Please realize that I am prostrating myself before you all and admitting my faults, while still standing by my convictions and not apologizing for who I am, what I prefer, and what I beleive.
Do you want me to address those issues, or not?
Sure, fire at will…but youre not going to change how I feel.
Nothing sadder than a homophobic gay guy. Nobody requires you to hang out with femme guys, but you DO NOT have a right to put them down. I am not attracted to femme guys, but I would never insult a femme gay or make him feel bad for being different from me.
Fred Phelps, deacons Trucked, Deacons Trucked, Fred Phelps, you two have a lot in common.
How gratified your boyfriend will be to know he’s not a major force in your life
If you know your prejudices are shallow and disagreeable, free yourself of them.
If you mean hanging out in gay places, I agree, not important, but love IS important. I love a man, and that cannot help but be an important part of one’s life. Decisions about health care, making a will, getting married, and so many other issues are affected by the gender of my love.
Absolute agreement on this one.
Nobody’s asking you to give up your personal feelings. All I want is for people like you to quit pissing on those of us who happen to have limper wrists than you.
Where the hell did you grow up that being gay didn’t have an impact on the life you ended up making for yourself? When I say it shapes a great deal of my life, I mean that from the moment I came out, lots of doors slammed shut and lots of doors flew open. I became political because I was gay. I started making friends and having a social life when I came out and started going to gay youth groups. I run the risk - a minor risk in this city, but still a risk - of getting beaten and killed due to the gender of another person. I personally have been and am subject to discrimination and opprobrium due to my sexual orientation. My political philosophies are rife with concepts that I would have had a much slimmer chance of coming into contact with as a heterosexual than as a member of the gay community. I’ve shaken Svend Robinson’s hand, seen the Pet Shop Boys in concert, and slept with someone from Uzbekistan. These things aren’t impossible for a heterosexual, but they’re a damn sight less likely.
How many bloody times must it be said? Nobody’s proud of being queer. I’m not. What I am proud of is the fact that I am a member of a community that has flourished, survived oppression, and has contributed to the cultural, political, and philosophical life of the greater society.
Not everyone gets to be enchanted, and it’s an opportunity to see a side of life and a portion of the range of human possibilities that not everyone gets to see. I’ve been granted the gift of seeing the everyday world from the outside. If you are afraid of that opportunity - afraid you might see something that might dissatisfy you or question your ingrained assumptions - it’s your right to stay put. But from where I’m sitting, it sure seems sheltered.
On the one hand, all valid points.
On the other hand, ya gots issues.
YMMV.
Esprix