Now, matt, not only have I seen the Pet Shop Boys in concert, I’ve seen Erasure!
Wait . . . that doesn’t make me gay, does it?
Yup, pretty much. Andy Bell is gay plutonium, contaminating all within reach with limp wrists, sibilant “S”'s, and a preoccupation with Liza’s weight problem.
Hey, goboy! Is there room over in that corner for me? I never, ever get included in the SDMB Gay Club. But, you know, I don’t spend much time in the gay clubs anyway since I can’t dance. (Does that make me lose any gay points?)
Me neither, and I cannot figure out why.
What?
Oh, you have to be gay?
There’s always some excuse for exclusion, isn’t there?
I lost the first time I wrote this post, so this isn’t gonna be as long as I would like.
How can your orientation NOT be a huge part of your life? Even if you don’t hang out in the gay community…
I mean, being straight is a huge part of my life. My boyfriend, for example. Even more so when people are older and building a life and a family around whoever they choose to be with.
You obviously have a right to your own opinion, but I have no clue where you’re coming from.
Don’t worry about it. Hell, I can’t dance either. (Doesn’t stop me from trying, of course…
I have to admit, I see where Deacons is coming from. While I try not to put down effeminate men, it’s simply a sub-subculture that I cannot relate to in the least.
I think a lot of the resentment that you may be seeing against effeminate men from masculine gay men is rooted in the perception, true or not, that the effeminate contingent of the culture adheres to a “Silence = Death” philosophy that implies contempt for the way in which masculine men conduct themselves.
There’s a lot of bitter feelings on both sides of this issue, and insults have been flying in both directions. It’s not just masculine men who put down effeminate ones (and if someone doesn’t coin simpler correct nomenclature, my fingers are gonna fall off), it works the other way around, too. I don’t particularly enjoy being referred to as a “fucking muscle queen”, “macho idiot”, and a “Clint Eastwood wannabee”. Though that last was clever…
I’m not closeted, but I don’t take the “in your face” approach that so many people find offensive. I live my life how I choose, do my best to be good to those around me, and make no big deal about my sexual orientation. Because to me, it’s no big deal. I like having sex with guys. They like having sex with me :). It doesn’t mean I have to let that aspect of my life dominate all of the others.
I believe that in my own way, I help to change society to be more tolerant towards gay men. When someone finds out that I’m gay, they’ve usually come to know me in another context first. With any luck, they’ve developed respect for me as an individual already. The fact that I’m gay then either has no impact whatsoever (most of the time) or induces them to reconsider their preconceptions about homosexuals. I’m proud to count among my best friends two men who until recently would have described themselves as homophobic, but have since become staunch advocates of gay rights. This is not unusual; I’m proud to have helped a few people reconsider their prejudices.
My point? In my own way, I’m doing my part. If I don’t conform to somebody’s notion of what it means to be homosexual, then that’s tough. People who conform to stereotypes of any sort try my patience severely; mainstream gay culture specifically, I find shrill, whiny and tasteless. This is my right; I hang out with people, gay or straight, whose company delights and intrigues me. Being gay doesn’t mean I have to go to clubs, love Bette Midler, or (thank God) ever use the word “Girlfriend”. I suck cock; I believe that satisfies the entrance requirement.
Now let’s stop sneering at each other, shall we?
Moderate type homo checking in.
Deacon’s, would you like to borrow my rainbow bulletproof vest? I bet it matches your curtains.
Guys, I don’t think it’s entirely productive to rip him a new one for not having the same views on gay pride and so on. There has to be some sort of balance. Ease off on the femmes on one side, not hammer those who don’t consider it an issue on the other.
Yeah, but I meet all the requirements and I’m still excluded! 
Well, silence does = death. It has nothing to do with being femme or butch. The problem is those who take their rights for granted to such an extent that they feel they can belittle the people and the community that fought and is fighting for those rights.
mrvisible -
You said everything I wanted to say, only much more eloquently. If I didn’t already have a partner, I’d ask you to marry me!
Thanks!
Well, make up your mind. Are you going to stop sneering at those who actually do feel like acting like that? How dare you say that people you never met are conforming to a stereotype when you know neither their motivations nor their character?
::: visualizes Matt, Kepi and Goboy as a trio doing Genesis’s “I Can’t Dance” :eek:
or perhaps…
Actually, as I suggested earlier, what you all are saying is that “I want the right to be myself, not to live up to anybody’s stereotypes.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, Matt, but wasn’t your OP more about being judged by “gay men who look for ‘straight-acting’ men” than about the relative merits of a “femme” vs. “macho” attitude.
And Deacons Trucked, correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t you saying that you like being a relatively masculine man who likes other men, and don’t want to get sucked into the mold of effiminacy that seems to be the self-accepted stereotype for (at least some, and at least around here) gays?
So where’s the problem here? You guys aren’t disagreeing; you’re protesting somebody demanding you fit a mold you have no interest in fitting. That the molds you’re protesting are 180% apart is less important than that you’re both against being pigeonholed.
Hey, I’m scrawny and unathletic, but I consider myself as good a man as Joe Fullback. And I refuse to be the idjit that lives what the “Guy Stuff” thread mocked.
::: puts on Aretha singing R-E-S-P-E-C-T, tiptoes out of thread before they start throwing tomatoes :::
Well, this would be the can of worms I was trying to avoid opening. But, what the heck. I’ve got asbestos long johns around here somewhere…
The following is prefaced with a big, bright shining IMHO, in 198 point Century Gothic Bold.
Effeminate homosexuals are not the only people who fight for gay and lesbian rights. The quote above strikes to the root of what I have against effeminate men. In order to be politically effective in causing societal change, I do not have to do things your way.
If I’ve belittled anyone in this thread, and I’d like to think that I have done my very best to avoid that, it’s effeminate men. The fact that I am not a flamboyant, in-your-face gay man does not mean that I am taking my rights for granted, or belittling those who fight for GLBT rights.
To the contrary, I believe that a variety of approaches are necessary to win the long battle for simple equality. One approach is to be a visible presence, to assert our existence as an aspect of the community, to march, and be seen. Another, equally valid approach, is to be productive, assiduous members of the communities we live in. To garner respect for ourselves as individuals, and then to parlay that into understanding and respect for the group that we are part of. There are hundreds of people out there who know me as a hard-working, intelligent, funny guy who happens to be gay. A lot of those people wouldn’t have had a chance to know me if the “happens to be gay” part was at the top of the list, at all times. Knowing an individual, instead of making assumptions about a group, goes a long way toward eliminating prejudice.
The simple act of being effeminate does not strike a blow for homosexual rights. You instantly assumed that the dividing line between masculine/effeminate gay guys is the same one that divides the politically apathetic/politically active gay population. Just because my attitude doesn’t announce to the world that I’m a gay man, doesn’t mean that I’m not doing my part to fight ignorance and intolerance.
I’ve run into this attitude time and again while participating in GLBT rights events. It’s daunting, and it discourages participation by all members of the community, and hurts the cause. I don’t have to swish to march.
What part of “it has nothing to do with being femme or butch” didn’t you understand? I am well aware that non-femme persons are working for gay rights. My attack is on privileged gay people taking the limited liberation they have for granted and then beating up on the people who still recognize that there is work to be done. See the secondary rant around the middle of page 1. As Polycarp says, if we agree, then why are we arguing?
Be butch, but don’t mock those who aren’t.
Be femme, but don’t mock those who aren’t.
Now let’s stop with the fussin’ and the feudin’ - everybody’s invited to my house for a veritable smorgasboard of all types of men. Orgy starts at 9:00 pm promptly - no admittance after the first orgasm.
Esprix
Everybody? :eek:
Well, I for one am all in favor of kissing and making up. Especially with some of the guys involved here. Yum.
And as to Esprix’s smorgasbord… I’m afraid I’d be too distracted by the host to ever make it to the buffet.
Don’t be too sure… sex kitten pose
(Scratches the sex kiten behind the ears.)
Niiiiiiice kitty. I’ve got some tender vittles for you, kayoot kitty-kitty.