Well said!
I find your insinuations extraordinarily unpleasant. Allow me to demonstrate the stupidity of your logic.
For the record:
- I despise violence of all sorts, especially terrorism.
- I understand the complexity of the Middle East situation and the reasons why a simplistic approach simply will not work.
- I have lived through decades of terrorism from the IRA (one such London bomb exploded within a few hundred feet of me), but I acknowledge that there are historical causes of the violence, plus terrorist organisations on both sides.
You describe me as ‘boosting Arafat’s confidence’ and ‘proving’ something unpleasant.
Well if you bothered to read the thread, you would have noticed that Zenster thinks that typing in a couple of words to an Internet search engine ‘proves’ that someone is a murderous hijacking gangster. When this ridiculous effort is demolished, Zenster then announces that simply because Sharon says so, Arafat is guilty of genocide.
So I posted a series of news reports which show that Sharon has blood on his hands, and a simple statement by him about his opponent is certainly not acceptable evidence.
THIS WAS TO DISCREDIT ZENSTER’S ‘PROOF’!
But you think it ‘proves’ I ‘support’ Arafat.
Since I have visited Israel many times and had long conversations with both Jews and Arabs, and I read extensively, I am familiar with the situation. As stated above, I also have the lessons of the Northern Ireland situation to guide me.
I know that Israel is a democracy, with a high level of education and technology (and could benefit the entire region with eg desalination plants).
I know the Palestinians feel that the international community took their land and have repeatedly let them down since. Plus they live in grinding poverty. (No doubt Zenster will announce they are all millionaires, based on his usual zero evidence :rolleyes: )
I know that Israel has suffered some terrible losses through war and terrorism. Sadly they have also committed some atrocities themselves (in Lebanese refugee camps for example.) It is likely that an Israeli Prime Minister has been assassinated by another Israeli faction, which shows the terrible tension in the whole area.
I know that suicide bombers cause misery AND THEY ARE NOT FCKING ‘ACCIDENTAL’, as you moronically suggest.
I also know that when a community can produce a regular supply of such people, that there are deep underlying causes which must be addressed. Simply using an army, building walls across borders etc is not going to solve the problem.
It may be worth trying to educate you some more:
And you would also notice that the Iraeli army will remove all journalists before sending in the tanks and bulldozers.
Both sides have a sinister agenda, but since Israel has the firepower, they suppress publicity, while the Palestinians crave (and create) the oxygen of TV coverage.
Are you saying that the TV cameras have failed to capture a father ‘throwing his child’ into the path of an Israeli bullet? What is your evidence of this amazing accusation?
Did you attend an educational establishment?
Perhaps you could explain how Arafat keeps the support of his electorate. They remain in poverty, but this is his ‘most powerful weapon’? 
And how do you ‘take that away from him’? Are you back to murder?
Why does his facial feature matter?
And do please explain how suicide bombers are ‘bullying’ tanks, bombers and nuclear missiles.
Do please give a historical precedent for this.
I can assure you that various unpleasant and illegal methods have been used by the UK Government in Northern Ireland over decades, but only negotiation has been successful. The US used overwheliming firepower in Vietnam, but couldn’t win.
If you care to study the Russians in action in Chechnya, you will see rape, slaughter and use of an army against civilians. This has not stopped the violence either.
The settlements. The policy of aiding and encouraging the settlements.
That’s the biggest problem, and it will remain no matter who the leader on either side is.
Enjoy,
Steven
I agree.
Independently of Arafats character, I don’t think the suicide bombers do their business because of him. They do it because they are desperate.
To cut short angry responses, I don’t think that is a justification.
IMO, if the Israeli philosophy changes, if the settlements are dismantled, if the palestinians will be able to do their work w/o interruptions and road blocks, if palestinian infrastructure (electricity, water, telephone) will not get bombed every couple of weeks, if the (EU financed) palestinian airport and bus station can be re-built w/o fearing that it will be bombed again by Israel, if houses will not be destroyed - short - if the palestinians will see some sense in their life, the terrorists will not be successful anymore in their recruiting efforts. Arafat will become irrelevant.
On the other hand, if Arafat gets killed right now, or even his kills himself for whatever reason, he will be replaced by somebody else and the theatre continues:
Palestinians will continue to kill innocent Israelis who will retaliate to kill palestinians (not always the ones responsible) who will revenge their innocents and kill Israelis who get enraged because they can’t eat in their peacefully in their restorants and take their buses, therefore elect leaders as Sharon who doesn’t give a shit about palestinians, who will order the army to tear down palestinian houses and infrastructure, which will provoke …
get the point?
I agree.
Independently of Arafats character, I don’t think the suicide bombers do their business because of him. They do it because they are desperate.
To cut short angry responses, I don’t think that is a justification.
IMO, if the Israeli philosophy changes, if the settlements are dismantled, if the palestinians will be able to do their work w/o interruptions and road blocks, if palestinian infrastructure (electricity, water, telephone) will not get bombed every couple of weeks, if the (EU financed) palestinian airport and bus station can be re-built w/o fearing that it will be bombed again by Israel, if houses will not be destroyed - short - if the palestinians will see some sense in their life, the terrorists will not be successful anymore in their recruiting efforts. Arafat will become irrelevant.
On the other hand, if Arafat gets killed right now, or even his kills himself for whatever reason, he will be replaced by somebody else and the theatre continues:
Palestinians will continue to kill innocent Israelis who will retaliate to kill palestinians (not always the ones responsible) who will revenge their innocents and kill Israelis who get enraged because they can’t eat in their peacefully in their restorants and take their buses, therefore elect leaders as Sharon who doesn’t give a shit about palestinians, who will order the army to tear down palestinian houses and infrastructure, which will provoke …
get the point?
I agree.
Independently of Arafats character, I don’t think the suicide bombers do their business because of him. They do it because they are desperate.
To cut short angry responses, I don’t think that is a justification.
IMO, if the Israeli philosophy changes, if the settlements are dismantled, if the palestinians will be able to do their work w/o interruptions and road blocks, if palestinian infrastructure (electricity, water, telephone) will not get bombed every couple of weeks, if the (EU financed) palestinian airport and bus station can be re-built w/o fearing that it will be bombed again by Israel, if houses will not be destroyed - short - if the palestinians will see some sense in their life, the terrorists will not be successful anymore in their recruiting efforts. Arafat will become irrelevant.
On the other hand, if Arafat gets killed right now, or even his kills himself for whatever reason, he will be replaced by somebody else and the theatre continues:
Palestinians will continue to kill innocent Israelis who will retaliate to kill palestinians (not always the ones responsible) who will revenge their innocents and kill Israelis who get enraged because they can’t eat in their peacefully in their restorants and take their buses, therefore elect leaders as Sharon who doesn’t give a shit about palestinians, who will order the army to tear down palestinian houses and infrastructure, which will provoke …
get the point?
Sorry for the double posts. The connection at this time is verrrrry slow, and I do not always get a confirmation whether my posting is already submitted or not :smack:
So Flonks, do you agree?
Blake,
1
‘Playground Politics’ version:
2
‘Playground Politics’ version:
3
‘Playground Politics’ version:
Getting the picture??? Good!
glee,
Done! Thats twice now and… well… Sorry, still feel the same. Maybe you would like to this too. This time though, don’t jump at the first sentence which you think could have been constructed a little better. Read it aaaallllll the way through, nice and calmly.
Thats my goal in life. It seems you may have reached your ‘limit’ (or so you seem to think). So go for it… Should be amusing.
Yep. (but only on weekdays).
Hope these satisfy your curious assumptions.:dubious:
Now, back to the discussion.
Here you go ‘picking out’ what you can react on. So you obviously think that Israel went out of theire way to prepare a full scale military opperation to bomb a school just before the lunch-time bell!!!
Actually, its more like first-hand experience. Sharon does not brainwash his country.
“ohhh really?”, I hear you say. Well…
Lets examine what Isrealis do when they are not killing Palastinians. [lets call them ‘Apples’]
Some Information. I can gather plenty more, and yes, you could pick out little bits here and there, glee, to play-on-words. So go for it. Lets see how you ‘play’ with these cites - as opposed letting people draw their own conclusions.
Now lets have a look at what Palastinians do when they are not killing Israelis. [lets call them ‘Oranges’]
Blaming Israel for unemployment.
Meanwhile, back at the Arafat Mansion…
‘democratic’ Progress is being made for
the future. Occasionally, hiting a minor obstacle.
… I just hate propaganda… Doooowwww:smack:
Now, compare Apples and Oranges.:rolleyes:
Let the readers come up with theire own conclusion ON THIS MATTER. The OP does not ask you to do this.
Well, I’m not going to ask you to prove this one, just put a little perspective on it. These things appear to happen in many places. There is no pre-requisite of ‘tension’ for it. But feel free to invent the ‘tension’ requirement to suit your argument. It seems to be your style.
Since it is obvious you only read something untill you disagree with it, then proceed to take it appart, then you may not have read some of what I had to say before. So I’ll repeat myself. I agree that Israel could show a little more restraint, but for me, its a matter of looking at as much evidence as I can, before drawing my conclusions as to who is the ‘worser-evil’.:eek: I am not looking for a ‘good guy’. Otherwise… Looking… Long time.
As for simply eliminating Arafat (as the OP is refering to), I do not feel this is a good short-to-medeium-term plan. But it sure is a damn good long-term one!!!
Mtgman/, I agree that Israel will try to hold on to these for as long as possible once the PA decides to take responsibility for its peoples actions. But as I suggested before, I think this bridge should be crossed once we get to it. The ball will be in Sharons court with the rest of the world looking on. If he fails to meet expectations, he will be voted out. Thats democracy!
FairDink that makes no sense at all. You didn’t actually say anything or explain anything. I’m sure you think that cryptic comments sound cool, but when they’re that cryptic they don’t achieve much.
Blake, you’re right. My response to you was a little unclear.
There is no art in pulling out sentences from paragraphs and acting on them. Letters make words, words make sentences, and sentences make paragraphs, not points. This is what I refer to as ‘playground politics’. There is a nice description of this with reference to law, on this site. I cannot remeber the thread it was mentioned in, nor the author, but you may have read it aswell.
My background with the Israeli Army has shown me some horrible sights in the past. I now architect the security for many governments around the world [incl. ALL fortune 50 companies] on behalf of the largest software security company in the world. I travel to both places extensively and have had many friends (from both sides) killed as a result of these ‘political’ actions.
Advice: Don’t seach for the ‘good guys’. They don’t exist out there, they exist within us, individually.
It is very hard to ‘play’ politics with someone who is merely pretednding to ‘play’. It is like playing cards with someone who is blatantly cheating. To hear someone say “it’s not cheating…” or “the other guy cheated too…” or “show me the rule where it says so…” is no excuse for cheating. That is what I hear you say when you ‘pull-appart’ paragraphs, and turn them into points.
Read back over the thread and if you cannot see my point, then lets agree to disagree, and I will simply move along. I have answered the OP, attempted to eliminitate some ‘playground politics’, provided some cites to try to prove ‘something’, and tried to add a little humour (big nose etc.).
Well it’s a good thing I didn’t do that then isn’t it. I quoted one sentence of Zenstaers that was the primary basis of his post so that he could be sure what I was referring to. I then pointed out what I got from the post. I then pointed out why this is logically unsound. I then asked Zenster if this was the point he was making. I then asked him to explain what point he was making if I had misunderstood. That is not taking one sentence out of context, it is pointing out that Zenster’s entire post was anon-sequitur.
You will notice that depste several others asking the same question Zenster has been unabvle to respond.
Describing that as ‘playground politics’ is a blatant ad hominem and nothing more. If you can adress hte substance of my post then do so, but don’t bother it in that way. There is no basis to what you claim and it can only possibly be disputed with ‘it’s not playground politics’. That style of 'debating won’t cut much ice around here because it is worthless.
I can’t see your point because you don’t seem to have one. How about instead of making cryptic coments and delivering your life history and then telling people that they can’t see your point you try something novel? This being a debate, how about you clearly state what your point is. I honestly can not understand whether you are for or against the assasination of Arafat you have been so unclear. AL that you have done is accuse others of playing and then tried to use yourself as an authority.
Accusing ‘peple’ of ‘only playing’ is just a pointless ad hominem and childish in the extreme. Attempting an argument from authority using yourself as the authoirty is just silly.
I am taking it you ‘using yourself as the authoirty’ here. All yours dude.
I was refering to Arafat being the ‘cheat’. My appologies that this was unclear.
FairDink nothing you have said is clear. I still don;t know whether you are for or against the assination of Arafat. “I am taking it you ‘using yourself as the authoirty’ here. All yours dude.” isn’t even English. What does that mean?
Can you please just stop being cryptic and state where you stand on this issue and why in formal English and not some form of slang I don’t even understand.
Just stepping back a little bit from the person to person posts here… I’d like to make an observation, if I may.
Many commentators the world over make a point of noting that Isreal is the only Western Style democracy in all of the Middle East region - and that further - it has a remarkably healthy economy and industrial base in comparison to her neighbours.
Certainly, this is an inarguable truth. It can’t be argued with in any way.
However, it also has to be said, (in the interests of fairness), that Isreal is in many ways an aritificial economy, and an artificial democracy. That is, she relies on outside economic aid (and military aid too) to maintain the position that she is in. Although, again in the interests of fairness, Egypt is also an “aid doped” economy and maintains nowhere near the quality of lifestyle that Isreal does.
Nonetheless, there can be no denying that Isreal is demographically an abberration. Huge numbers of Jewish immigrants over the last 70 years - as well as some 700,000 forced expulsions from neighbouring Arabic countries after the 1948 war - which by any yardstick was ethnic cleansing in a place long before the term was ever invented.
Hence, considering the artificial nature of Isreal, and the middle class Western values she espouses, and considering the neighbourhood in which she lives - it seems to me that the single greatest flashpoint for bitterness is the perception amongst the dreadfully destitute, downtrodden Palestinian population that right next door - just over there - is a country who is “living it up at our expense”.
I honestly don’t think the settlements are gonna go away. Too entrenched.
I’ve thought about this long and hard - for yonks and yonks.
I truly believe that the only real, ever lasting peace will be when Israel merges into Palestine, and she changes her name back to Palestine but keeps her current democratic form of governement, but also, extends that government and electoral coverage to abosrb the Palestinian people. Isreal will most likely need to do this in a way similar to how West Germany absorbed East Germany in 1991. It certainly wasn’t cheap.
And moreover, Isreal will need to do such a thing with extreme graciousness, and extend the vote to EVERY Palestinian citizen. And further, the entire world will need to pour a veritible truckload of money into the West Bank region to try and raise the Palestinian people’s GNP per annum up to somewhat that of the typical Israeli citizen.
Now, I’m happy to conced that this might all be pie in the sky stuff. But mark my words, one day it will happen. Maybe 15 years, who knows. Maybe not the name change, but one thing’s for sure. Whilstsoever the woeful, wholly unfair and artificial contrast in quality of life exists between Palestinian citizens and Israeli citizens continues, so will the carnage.
Israel honestly needs to look deep into her heart, and consider that just 100 kilometers away are 2 million people who live on less than 1 tenth of what they live on per day. There’s nothing noble in that. Nothing at all.
I hope, when FairDink submits his proposals to “ALL fortune 50 companies”, he has a damn good team of sub-editors and proofreaders to try to work out what he’s on about, and rewrite them for him.
Let him hire “Ari Fleischer”. I’ve lost count now of the number of times he’s started a sentence with “No, what the President really meant was…”
Excellent post, Boo Boo Foo, I whole heartly agree.
We might see that in 50-100 years. If there are still people alive in Israel and Palestine in that time.