[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by alice_in_wonderland *
**
Alice, not at all! They were long divorced.
Kind of a silly post of mine, kind of a silly thing to do to her, but it worked, what can I say!
Sometimes you just have to slice through the gordian knot, or whatever the saying is.
Just wanted to chime in with the folks wishing you good luck. It does sound like you have a shot.
Well, thanks for all your posts. I was real confident out there tonight because I knew I had some people out there rooting for me. So here it goes in a nutshell.
So we have a nice dinner. Somehow the conversation goes wrong and she starts showing me pictures of a guy she finds attractive. This guy is waaay more attractive than me. All of a sudden I feel intimidated as hell. Like I don’t even deserve to be speaking to this girl. The rest of the dinner goes nice and I make her laugh most of the time and she even commented “Maplye Syrup (let’s pretend that’s my name), you always know how to make me feel pretty”. So next she gets the idea that it would be fun to hit the batting cages. I’m doing alright. My only problem was that I hit the fast pitch section to warm up and miss like 10/16 balls. After I warmed up I did alright until she started watching me and then I suck again. The whole batting cage thing went alright not too many blunders on my part. The only problem is that I still havent found the right time to ask her how she felt about us dating. I still keep my cool though and was ready to abort the whole thing if nescissary.
So we go to Starbucks (which is what we always do before a movie). She picks up on the fact that I’m feeling distant as hell from her so she descides to try to get me to talk. “What’s wrong? Why so quiet?” she says. I’ve been playing my confident act for the whole night, but I decide to drop it alittle and say, “Just feeling alittle lonely, is all”. She starts to talk alittle about that guy she was attracted to and says he’s an asshole and she does’nt know why she’s so attracted to him. I tell her that’s why I have such a hard time finding a date, because I’m too nice, women like assholes. She says, “No, no, that’s not true, you’re smart, good looking, funny, and you know how to make a woman feel good about herself, I wonder why women are’nt attracted to you”. Feeling curious, I say “Why do you think women don’t like me?”. She says I don’t know. Then I say (which was perhaps a mistake), “why doesn’t a girl like you like me?”. Now before I go further, let me just say that the question presented is’nt as pathetic as it sounds. It did’nt sound to awkward in the tempo of the conversation and fit the context very well.
Anyways, this is the question. All the chips are on the table here and the gears have been set to motion. If she says "That's not true, I do like you", I'm the happiest man in the world. I would finally be able lay down, tired, but on the field of victory; with the knowledge that all my struggle, all those lonely nights were not in vain. If she rejects me, however, well I don't need to tell you how I'd feel.
So what does she say? Well without missing a beat, this girl says:
"I just never found you attractive in that way."
Ouch. I take it like a man though and show no reaction. After about a beat, I say, “Wow, keep sweet talking me like that and it’ll take all my energy not to just run up and hug you”. Situation diffused, she laughs and we move on with the conversation. She manages to give me another “I’ve never found you attractive like that” though and I don’t give her a reaction.
That statement made me wonder many things. First of all, I knew what it meant, it meant that I wound up in gender neutral penissless guy-friend territory. Being the gender neutral friend makes me want to jam a fork into my eye repeatedly. Secondly though was that “in that way” part. Sort of implies that she does find me attractive in other ways, I guess just not the “Sexually attractive, I-want-to-date-you-way”. Was there any other way that mattered?
Cool was the word of the day because I just shoved all that angst and self loathing I felt deep inside and went on with the conversation. After that something snapped because she opened up to me like she was a drunken poet and I used that psychology minor of mine to convince her that she’s not really attracted to this other guy. She just feels the need to be loved by him because he treats her so badly. Which is what I really thought and not just a way for me to get revenge. She still tells me she’s sexually attracted to him even though she would never want to date him. So the whole night pretty much went to shit. We wound up being better friends because she opened up to me so much. And I did get plenty of compliments like, “Wow, I really like being around you because you make me feel valuable.” and “You really know how to treat a lady”. None of that brings me comfort though and once again life delivers me a punch in the dick. So I walk her to her doorstep and she says “Thanks for being such a good friend” and she walks out of my night. Needless to say, I get back in my car and scream my head off.
I don’t feel too bad though. Not really depressed at all. Being a nice guy makes me feel good about myself even if that means I’ll be lonely the rest of my life. Maybe I’m just numb from the shock of it. I’ll probably be feeling it in the morning.
Well if you’ve managed to read through all that then I thank you. You have managed to share a major event in my life and we might even get to see the end of my suffering. Hopefully the worst is past.
I have to say you have an interesting definition of “went to shit”.
Sounds to me like your stock went wa-a-ay up.
Hey, she didn’t walk out of your life. She didn’t say “Don’t call me again”. You said it yourself: You’re better friends than you were. Don’t trivialize that. Friendship is a helluva lot harder to do than sex. You said you didn’t want to screw that up. You didn’t. Congratulations.
And you’ve put a thought in her head. I’d be surprised if she isn’t asking herself why she never “thought of you that way”.
It doesn’t happen over dinner. It doesn’t happen overnight. (Only in movies.) And it doesn’t happen every time.
But it can happen.
It’s possible that she recognizes you as an attractive person but she also realizes that she’s not attracted to you. I’ve found myself in that position a few times, and it’s hard to explain to someone without sounding condescending or fake about it.
Good luck.
You really have it bad, don’t you, and that ain’t good!
Four words is all I can offer you, and I hope you take them to heart: No more Mr. Nice-Guy!
Bring out the beast, man, let’s hear you ROAR!
You don’t have to start slapping her around (that might come later, if you all are into that sort of thing). But come on, buck up!
The only thing you need is confidence. Hey, do what I do, and what all other sensitive guys do, at least from time to time — fake it!
The appearance of self-confidence is all you have to get across to her. Self-confidence is the biggest turn-on to a girl. No, more… if she doesn’t sense it, there’s nothing. Keep your doubts to yourself. Bury them! Then bury the shovel you buried them with!
You can still be funny, witty, whatever your normal personality is like. But no more self-effacing humor! And for God’s sake, get yourself that all-important veneer of self-confidence!
Summon up that ‘primordial man’ inside you, and bluff your way along! That’s really all there is to it.
Look at the girls who fall for dumb guys, even for hoods… What do those guys have that you don’t have? Self-confidence! Or at least, the appearance of self-confidence. That’s all you have to shoot for, at first.
Hey, this is the voice of experience talking! I think I was the original Mr. Nice (read: Lonely!) Guy!.
I’m pulling for you, kiddo!
Practice on the self-confidence thing, or you’ll be ‘pulling for yourself’ for a long time, if you know what I mean! —chuckling in commiseration----
You don’t really have to ROAR! That was a bit overboard.
But I stand by the rest of my advice.
Try not to get depressed. Just work out your ‘primordial man’ in your own mind.
Hey, sorry it didn’t work out. But at least you know where you stand and the friendship is still intact. I suggest that you do the following: have another evening out with her so that she doesn’t feel like something is wrong (try not to talk about dating), and then stay away from her for a little bit. You should give yourself some space so that you don’t drive yourself crazy. Try to out with some other women.
And I know that feeling, being considered a Mr. Nice Guy but never being able to score. It definitely sucks because at once you know you’re appreciated, but then you’re still not good enough.
Oddly enough for me, though, I’m getting more attention from my women friends (yeah, I’m gay), while some of my other straight Nice Guy friends watch in envy. Lust/love/infatuation is a weird thing, for some of us it doesn’t seem to work the way it’s supposed to…
Best of luck to you. I wish some of my “women” karma on you, you’ll be able to do more with it than I will. 
Yeah the self confidence thing is somthing I need to work on. I seemed to have alot of it in high school but college kinda beat it outta me.
Well dtaylor404, it’s true that the night was’nt a complete waste. I did manage to preserve the friendship, but it sort of feels like I’m settling in for second prize. It’s alittle daunting to rejected by anyone. While I’m happy that I’m still friends with her, it sucks being the penissless guy-friend no matter who I’m friends with.
Yeah BoiToi, I’m gonna try to slow down going places with her now. Seems like all the enthusiasm has sort of been sucked out of the whole thing. Hope you’ve got alot of women Karma stocked up, I’m gonna need it.
Well, I’ve had a night to think it over. I slept on it. That feeling that there’s a shard of glass in my chest seems to have subsided. It’s gonna be hard looking at her as “Only friends” but maybe another girl will come along soon. I built up this armor, and made it so that no one gets through. Somehow this girl, with only a smile and a touch, managed to get inside me and mess everything up. I hate that.
There’s only one thing that pisses me off extremely and that’s the fact that this girl likes this asshole of a guy so much. This guy cheats on his girlfriends and constantly makes them feel shitty and worthless just so he has more control over them. He’s lower than scum. He’s the barnicle that clung to the side of evolution. I’m not kidding. This ain’t sour grapes, this is coming from what this girl told me.
Yet mysteriously enough this girl can’t get him out of her mind. She’s uncontrollably attracted to him and she does’nt want to be. I shit you not when I say that this guy’s nickname for this girl is “Ugly”, but in spanish. She says she constantly feels ugly and worthless around him and always dresses down because she does’nt think she deserves to look nice in front of him. She does the opposite to me. Always dresses nicely and feels like she’s some damn angel when she’s around me. Believe me folks, there’s no editorial slant here, I’m not just trying to make myself look infallible, everything I say is truth.
Someone tell me. What kind of world is this where Prince Charming loses out to the Troll who lives under a bridge and eats babies?
I lost alot of sleep contemplating this one. Someone help me through this.
Your friend has some emotional issues to get past if she would choose this asshole over a nice guy. I can’t understand why she’s attracted to him, though I imagine a psychologist would understand.
Have you considered asking your friend to fix you up with her single friends? Perhaps (if you can bear it) you could double-date. If she sees how well you treat a date and how poorly she is treated by her date, maybe she’ll realize she doesn’t want to lose you and that you meant more to her than she thought.
You know, I would’ve thought it was just her being a wacko also, but apparantly alot of girls have fallen for this guy’s most evil deception.
As for asking her to set me up, it kinda feels pathetic on my part if I were to do that. I’m also not sure if she would be able to find anyone for me anyways.
You are either insane, delusional or a woman dtaylor404.
His stock is in Penis-less land as it always was.
Look, I’m not you Maple Syrup, but if I was I would avoid this woman like the plague. It is analogous to a Heroin addiction, there is a rush of being with a pretty girl who you’re in love with, but coming down off that fleeting rush is a long trip down.
Avoid her, don’t take her calls, don’t return her calls, and go find someone who enjoys you ‘in that way’.
A possible interesting result could be that she stops taking you for granted and starts noticing that you do possess a penis as well as some large swingin’ balls.
Women enjoy a challenge as well as men, but in a different way.
You’re a giant endless bowl of candy to her, an indulgence that means nothing, is not filling or fulfilling, and is always there.
This guy is ‘above’ her in status and power (in her mind) and has a serious ‘edge’ to him - she is complelled to try to attract him.
Same old story.
Wow CheapBastid, that’s some tough love, but the thing is, I pretty much believe everything you’ve said. I’ve always believed that nice guys finish last and that women love assholes. I really should’nt be surprised. Something in me saw something beautiful in her and I guess that made me feel good about myself. Then like some horrible snowball all my cyniscism and defenses start to drop. All of a sudden all my faith in womenkind started to return. Well, looks like I’m back to normal though, all my faith in the dignity of (wo)man has left me. It was a beautiful dream, but it was only a dream. Sometimes I hate being right.
Damn, if all my friends back from college knew I fell for a girl like this, I’d never hear the end of this.
Look, love can be a wonderful and magical thing, it restores one’s faith and makes one ‘present’, but speaking of ‘tough love’ lose the martyr thing.
Yes, women fall for assholes, the do so because assholes appear to be confident (as you’ve been hearing over and over again here).
Cynicism is for the weak and fearful.
Do stuff you enjoy, practice things you do well. Live well, love well, and stop whining.
Ah, my friend, you mistake an honest expression of feeling for whining. Believe me, I’m not looking for pity, but solace. Besides, not dealing with your emotions is, in fact, the coward’s way out.
As for martyrdom, I’m no Jesus Christ, but I do feel I took one for the team.
I do not advocate ‘not dealing with your emotions’ just not wallowing in them.
I appears to me (from what I’ve read in this thread) that you consider yourself a ‘sensitive guy’. Great! But there are ‘hypersensitive guys’ who focus on their failures and shortcomings, complain about not getting the girl, and how assholes only seem to get laid. It seemed you were one of those, but I must be mistaken.
You now know she’s not interested in you, there is a freedom in that knowledge. You can choose to go with that or mourn your lost illusions.
It also appeared that you were asking for advice, not seeking ‘solace’, I’m sorry I was mistaken on that too.
[sub]…waiting for the Attack Butt jokes[/sub]
Wow, man. That’s bad. I can relate, though. I think the key here is (not that this is easy at all) to see yourself as something worthwhile that another wonderful woman will want. When you can see yourself that way, you’ll have less of an addiction to this girl. If you can manage that, you might even be able to hang around her and give her another chance to notice your charms without ripping out your heart.
I think that a few times I’ve blown it by being too needy and not being able to just hang out and give the woman a chance to warm up to the idea, because I was too needy, and needed to push the issue. If I’d been more confident, I might have had a better chance in general, as has been mentioned here before, and I wouldn’t have needed to run away when it became clear we weren’t going to date right away.
I know this is only one example out of many different outcomes in the world, but I know a couple who recently had their first child. She told him he was too skinny for her at first, and he had a real hard time, but decided he wasn’t going to ditch her and the whole group of friends. This isn’t a guarantee of performance on your part, but just encouragement that it does happen sometimes. But the key I think is to be very self-assured. My confidence comes from being thumped on the head so many times. I know now that I can stand to be turned down, or to live on my own another year. If this one doesn’t take me, then I don’t really need her. I plan (!) on not getting involved until I’m involved.
((Manly cyber slap on the back))
I would advocate a more moderate position.
It is not an axiom that “woman like assholes.” Some women like some assholes at some stages of their lives.
But for any woman worth your time, this stage does not last forever. So what if she is infatuated with him temporarily? It happens. It is very likely that she will move on.
I do not suggest that you run away and never talk to her again. Fleeing at the first sign of failure is a poor way to demonstrate that you have a pair. I would urge caution, patience, and planning. You must first change the dynamic of the relationship in order to gain the emotional upper hand.
I speak from no small amount of experience.
It would seem, to a sensitive individual, that the best way to win a woman’s confidence is to offer her nearly unlimited emotional support and unconditional respect. This way, my friend, lies madness.
These are favors you grant life partners, not women you are interested in starting relationships with.
Consider it this way. Would you offer carte blanche support to any of your male friends? Or how about any of your female friends whom you harbor no romantic interest or attraction? Somehow I doubt it. I am very generous with my friends; nevertheless they know I permit neither leeches nor stupidity. Some of my best friends on the boards can testify to that. 
CheapBastid is absolutely correct: offering this woman unlimited draughts at your emotional well is a poor idea. Like everyone else, she has to earn what draughts you permit her. Many men do not like pairing up in serious relationships with women they see as “slutty,” for to them, a woman who sleeps around lacks discrimination and thus confers no value on those she selects.
It is very likely that she finds you undiscriminating in where you place your affections, and therefore being the apple of your eye doesn’t make her feel particularly valued, no matter what she may say. Perhaps this only reinforces her low self-esteem. She has never had a relationship and is pursuing an asshole. Either she is a glutton for punishment or she has a poor opinion of herself.
So don’t run away. Don’t suddenly become distant. Just be patient and guarded. Do not offer her all of the support you think you could. Stop making self-deprecating jokes. And at all costs, Maple Syrup, do not give her full access to your time. If you are not already very busy, take on some new activities that interest you. If she wants to go out, let it be at your convenience. When she values your time and realizes just how important you are to her emotional well-being, then she will be more interested in a serious relationship.
Just do it slowly, methodically, and without alienating her. This is, of course, the most difficult part. Just be patient, please. If you have not misrepresented the facts in any way, I see every sign that a relationship can happen in the near future.
But why try and figure out when this stage will end. I find it a more practical approach to accept that she is in this stage and not try to change her.
I do not advocate ‘fleeing’ but instead not throwing himself under that emotional freight train again and again. It appears he is infatuated, and he will not be able to get over this infatuation without avoiding jumping back into that pool
That was well put.
Many assumptions in that paragraph. I say take her at her word. She specifically stated that she is not interested in him, why scheme to try and change her mind?
I’m with you on all points here.
This is where you lose me. If she values your time and if she feels you are important to her emotional well-being then she might be more interested in a serious relationship.
I don’t agree with any of this. This would require the emotional distance that you have Maeglin, but being caught in the whirlwind does not grand one the strength and perspective to effectively carry out your prescription.