Thank you, Tars.
doreen:
You have just received the Monty Award for Biggest Misrepresentation of a Monty post ever.
Monty,
If you mean the second quote, my fault- I didn’t notice I left out the identification. That was from Tristan’s post, not yours.
If you mean the part that was from your post, I didn’t mean to misrepresent it. Perhaps I misunderstood. If the lack of bilingual ballots etc. wasn’t what you meant by punishment, then what did you mean?
I don’t have a problem with a particular state deciding as a service to provide ballots in one or two (or more) common non- English languages. I do have a problem with people claiming that speakers of the one or two predominant non- English speakers have a right to a ballot in their native language, but that of course we don’t have to provide ballots in 200+ languages. Either it’s a right or it’s not a right. It’s not a right that Spanish speakers have but Bengali speakers lack.
I also find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that many native-born citizens, educated in the US (even those in an ethnic enclave who rarely use English) would not pick up enough English to understand the ballot instructions as well as a native speaker (I’m talking about the actual words, such as " Turn the lever to the left of the candidate’s name". If the layout makes the instructions confusing, that will apply no matter what language the instructions are in). The candidates name will be printed the same on both an English and a non- English ballot, so that’s not the problem. And unless the foreign language press is much different than the English language press, the Proposition 1 or Referendum 13 mentioned in the newspapers will have that very same number on the ballot.
Cite?
What I meant…and…I’ll…take…this…slowly…for…you…
is that an intentional denial of a citizen’s right is a punishment.
Got that?
I like it. But it won’t work for propositions on the ballot.
spooje: And can you imagine the wrangling over which ballot proposition is represented by a shaft?
I think they could ALL be represented by a shaft. But that’s just me.
And the right that’s being intentionally denied is the right to a ballot in the native language? Then I understood the first time. Now explain to me slowly how Spanish or Chinese is different from any other language as far as this “right” in concerned. Or will you be the first to say that every citizen has a right to a ballot in his/her native language, regardless of how many or how few citizens speak that language.
Nonsense. I said that. Every person has a right to a ballot in whatever language you need. You simply inform folks what type of ballot you need on your voter registration form, and that a ballot in that language will be given to you. Simple. Non-discriminatory.
Okay, doreen,
Apparently it has to be spelt out for you. It’s not “the right to a ballot in one’s native language” that’s the issue. The issue is “the right to participate in the election process.” If that requires a ballot in a language other than English to ensure the voter (you know, the freaking citizen concerned) is not intentionally denied by the government the right to participate, then the government has the duty to provide that ballot.
And where exactly did you see me say that anyone should be denied that based on the number of speakers/users of any language?
quote:
There are legal wranglings every single fucking time a piece of legislation comes up when somebody claims that the two versions are not identical (of course the one making the accusation claims injury) and that changes must be made.
Read the first few pages – this is what I mean by “legal wrangling”, in this case over what names to use on road signs (oversimplified abridged version). “Claims of injury” is a little more of a stretch - I didn’t mean physical injury, but rather “you’re injuring my culture”.
Read paragraph 3. Someone has a problem with the Quebec (French) use of a particular word to describe a “mortgage” in legislation.
These aren’t the best, but quick. If you’ve spent much time in Canada you’ll probably know what I mean. Quebec routinely insists on being recognized as a distinct society, and uses it’s language as one of many ways to leverage that point. (Cite for that is: http://www.xrefer.com/entry/443569 )
(1)This thread has been hijacked in several different directions, but yes… “the ‘right’ to a ballot in one’s native language” was exactly the issue I was arguing (and I think doreen too, but can’t speak for her). (2) Of course, nobody’s suggesting denying any voter their right to vote.
(3) Yep, that’s what we’re talking about alright. “Is not printing a ballot in a particular language an example of the government intentionally denying a citizen’s right to vote?” I believe the answer to be no. (I fully agree with doreen’s reply to the Voting Rights Act of '65). We have the right to vote. End of story.
There are a lot of things necessary to cast an informed vote, but I don’t think the government should be required to provide everything you’ll need. Example: transportation. You gotta physically get to the polls to cast your vote (or use an absentee ballot). Political organizations, churches, civic groups, etc. routinely provide transportation to and from the polls for people who would otherwise not be able to travel there - in rural areas where some folks don’t have a car and live far from the polls, elderly who can’t get around well, or maybe just seeing the bus roll down the streets with their friends aboard will encourage some people to vote who otherwise wouldn’t have. Of course these organizations have ulterior motives, they’ll encourage you to vote for their candidate. But net result is - they are getting people to vote who often would not have been able to otherwise.
But the government doesn’t go fetch Hoss off the farm just so he can vote, or pick up Aunt Mary at the nursing home, or that sweet but reclusive old lady up the street. No, if a local church hadn’t gone to get Hoss, or the local party member hadn’t gone to Aunt Mary’s home, or the Do Gooders Council hadn’t talked out the old lady up the street then they would not otherwise have been able to vote. Even so, nobody is denying their right to vote (least of all the gov’t). And nobody will be with only English ballots, either.
- And what language will this form be in? Same problem, different form.
** I’ll be needing mine in Klingon, and the wife takes Esperanto. No, really, it’s true. And don’t you dare presume to denigrate my culture by questioning the language we use.
So if someone can’t or won’t make it to the polling station, the government must provide an absentee ballot but if that person can’t learn a language that is not the official language of the country, then that person is SOL? That’s a crock. The rationale behind the absentee ballot appears to be having the government enable those citizens who otherwise wouldn’t be able to vote. Same rationale applies with the ballot in a language other than English.
Your comment about Klingon and Esperanto is also a crock. For one thing, I speak Esperanto; however, it’s not my native language. There are a few folks whose native language is Esperanto but AFAIK those folks are all in Europe so it’s irrelevant here. For another thing, Klingon sure as heck isn’t your native, nor your only, language.
speaking of native languages, has anyone learned any Lakota?
just wondering.
I didn’t. I did however, in either this thread or the other, see people claim that bilingual ballots wouldn’t be expensive because they wouldn’t have to be provided in every language spoken, only the most common. I didn’t see you take a position either way (although I may have missed it). Fine, now I know what your positiion is. And the person is not SOL if they don’t have a bilingual ballot. There are alternatives which don’t even require any government involvement- allowing the person to bring someone to translate for them, organizations printing up sample ballots in other languages and allowing people to bring them into the booth or providing translators, writing a cheat sheet so you remember to vote “Si” to proposition 1 and “No” to proposition 2 . Why is the only acceptable way to solve the problem the one that costs the government ?
About English not being the official language of the US? The US doesn’t have an official language by law.I’d be willing to bet a lot of countries don’t.English is the de facto language of the larger society.Most immigrants try to learn English, and have their children learn English not because they think it’s a beautiful language, but because they recognize that it will be necessary to function outside the ethnic enclaves. There are people who want not only to make English the official language, but to pass “English only” laws. And comments like yours are part of the reason. If those laws get passed, they won’t have to hear that English is not the official language of the country.
And how do you (or an election worker) know Jimbrowski’s wife’s native language isn’t Esperanto? She could be one of those native Esperanto speakers who immigrated from Europe.
Excuse me? “Won’t”? Oh right, just like those people who simply “Won’t learn English”.
OK Monty, you pick out the people who don’t deserve to vote simply because they won’t, in your opinion, make sufficient effort to go to the polls, and I’ll pick out the people who don’t deserve to vote because they won’t, in my opinion, learn enough English to cast a ballot. Sound good? (Hint: no)
True. And I argue that the absentee ballot process is unduly burdensome on at least some people who are developmentally disabled, physically challenged, or lacking in sufficient interest or motivation to complete the process. To vote via absentee ballot, one must make the effort to actually acquire a ballot (hint: they don’t just magically show up). Then the voter must read it (in which language?!?), mark their vote(s) (“What’s this chit?”), assemble it back in an envelope (“But I ripped it! Does it need postage? Good heavens let me get my glasses…”), and successfully deposit it back in the US mail system. Please remember Monty that not everyone is as smart and capable as you and in fact for some people, “you know, the freaking citizen concerned”, the above process can be difficult to the point of being impossible. E.g. the frail little old widow living alone, the person with a psychological disorder who won’t touch their mail because they’re afraid of “germs”, those developmentally disabled who have been instructed about the option of an absentee ballot but who have, simply, forgotten. These people may indeed be unable, for a variety of reasons, to complete the absentee ballot process as it currently exists. Even so, the government has not denied thier right to vote. Just because someone does not cast a vote doesn’t mean it’s the government’s fault, or that the gov’t needs to do something to change that. We already encourage our citizenry to vote, but we can’t force them to.
With absentee ballots the government has made a reasonable effort to collect votes but the gov’t does not chase after the prospective voter or try to divine what it is they personally need to be able to express their opinion. “Here’s the absentee ballot system. If it doesn’t work for you, TS.” Yes, that’s how it is, and how it should be. And do you know who picks up the slack for (many of) those who are SOL? The previously mentioned churches, political parties, and civic groups who physically go and get these people and bring them to the polls. No, the system is not 100% perfect. Please design one that is.
So my argument stands: the government failing to provide multi-lingual ballots (or transportation to the polls) is not a case of the government denying an eligible voter their right to vote.
<Righteous Indignation> Fuck you. How dare you? How fucking dare you. How dare you pass judgement on how I identify myself and my culture. I was adopted and speak three languages for your information. It is not up to you, fucker, to decide which language I chose to vote in. Fuck you for daring to question my culture and my heritage. Do you routinely pass judgement on people you hardly know? You did to me, so fuck you heartily. The fact that I consider myself part of a culture that I was not born into is none of your fucking business. People change. I changed. Try changing, fucker.<RI>
Whew, that was nasty, sorry about that. Everyone knew that was TIC, right? My point is: no, nobody (Monty, this includes us both) has the right to declare what is or is not anybody else’s “culture” or preferred language. Even though I suspect a significant number of Spanish speakers, even those who are lobbying for their ‘own’ ballot, are perfectly capable of voting in English, you claim they still have a ‘right’ to a Spanish ballot even though an English one would suffice. OK, under this scheme you would have no right to deny me a ballot in any language that I assert was my “cultural heritage”, even though you know English would suffice. It’s not that you can’t provide me a ballot in Klingon, it’s that you just don’t want to. (Cite: I heard someone was working on a Klingon translation of the Bible, if they can do that they can do a ballot.)
This is what I meant by confusing a ‘want’ with a ‘right’. And no, multi-lingual ballots are sill not, nor have they ever been, a ‘right’.
ENGLISH in California… (lmao)…
Is that what y’all call it?
I think it’s pretty damned cool that we (the US) have such a diverse population that we actually have contraversy over something like this.
I was coming home today (Texas) and stopped to ask some guys a question. I noticed one was translating Spanish to another what I wanted. So, I just asked him myself. They just smiled and we continued from there.
Shit man, nobody’s making you quit speaking “English” or whatever the Hell “you” speak. I’ve lived all over the place and this so-called English ain’t the same from state to state.
(Dem-dam coonasses down on de bayou, talk sum stuff you ain’t never heard.)
Parts of Texas we got signs w/Spanish on top and Texican on the bottom. Just shows which is 2ndary 'round here.
BTW when did Mexico and Canada get kicked out of America?
Next time, so it doesn’t make you look like a liar, don’t cut out the most important word and try to say I said that which I didn’t say. I believe I’m the one who in this thread mentioned that there are those who may not have the ability to acquire a second language.
Drop dead, moron. Since I didn’t say that I felt that those who could not make it to the polls don’t deserve to vote, your assertion is pure unadulterated bullshit. In fact, my point is that all citizens of voting age are entitled to, and thus should be provided a means to, vote.
Bullshit. Pure bullshit. For one thing, it’s not burdensome at all out here in lovely California. I keep getting my absentee ballot notice spot on time.
For another thing, nowhere did I say or imply that someone should be forced to vote.
Completely irrelevant. The issue isn’t the government chasing after votes. It’s the government not alienating/disenfranchizing a citizen who has the right to vote. Part of designing a system that comes closer to being 100% perfect is providing a ballot in the individual’s language of competence (the “native language” is a red herring or a strawman, can’t remember which) as those who, say, are native speakers of Tamil, have fluency in Spanish but not in English may opt to take their ballot in Spanish.
The transportation issue is proven to be a non-issue. Failing to provide a ballot in a language that the voter (you know, the freaking citizen concerned {I know you read that term because you quoted it}) understands is ensuring the voter’s vote is counted. Just randomly making marks on the ballot itself runs a very good risk of invalidating the ballot.
If you believe you were adopted by Klingons, then the issue of voting isn’t your biggest issue. Reality and your lack of comprehension thereof constitute that.
[qutoe]I was adopted and speak three languages for your information. It is not up to you, fucker, to decide which language I chose to vote in.
[/quote]
Again, drop dead, moron. Nowhere did I say that it was up to me to make that decision.
Go to hell. Where did I say any of that? Where did I imply any of that?
No. The way you started that particular post shows that you’ve got a bone up your tush regarding me.
Irrelevant. For one thing: I FUCKING DID NOT MAKE SUCH AN ASSERTION, YOU DAMN LIAR. I made no comment about culture. I made comments regarding language. Yes, I realize language is part of culture (Heck, I’m majoring in Linguistics!), but the issue isn’t if someone gets to vote or doesn’t get to vote based on their culture. It’s if the government is disenfranchising someone due to a lack of ability to communicate in English.
Bullshit. I did not make that claim.
Again, more bullshit from you. I made the assertion regarding language of competency. You know (and if you don’t, seek medical help) damn well that there is no such thing as Klingon culture. It’s fictional. Want has nothing to do with providing a ballot in that language. There is no need. There is a need to provide ballots to citizens in languages other than English.
You are, yet again, wrong.
doreen- “The Voting Rights Act doesn’t say a word about bilingual ballots, and if it did, we’d already have them, in every language spoken by even a single non- English speaking American citizen.”
Am I missing something in those links I gave above? I thought they do have multilingual ballots in certain counties(based on some Fed measure of need for it). Not every language possible ,true, but if there is a need. It is possible, as has already been mentioned, to come to some reasonable middle ground between only English and every single language.
This “thin edge of the wedge” stuff comes off as xenophobia, imho.
AAAAaaaagggghhhh! Goddamnit! enough already…
Even Sven you still around, hello, anybody…
ears still ringing
Well, looks like y’all ran everybody off 
You know what? All the non-english speaking people I know do quite well at elections. They have family and friends that speak english. Guess what else? Many non-english speaking people have representatives in government that speak their language. They do sometimes even come around and shake hands have rallies etc. BTW Texas has a governor’s race going on…I actually watched a debate recently w/ two candidates and it was in Spanish.
Y’all act like non-english speaking people are fucking 2nd class citizens. Man look around.
OUR DIVERSITY IS OUR STRENGTH!!!