oooops…sorry I didn’t realize this was the Pit!
never mind y’all go ahead w/ the cuss fight…again sorry!
:smack: :smack: :smack:
CarnalK
They do indeed have multilingual ballots in some places, but not every service provided by the government is based on a right.My city has a summer recreation program for children, but if your city doesn’t your rights have not been violated. The Voting Rights act doesn’t say a word about bilingual ballots. It neither requires nor prohibits them. There is nothing to stop California from deciding it needs bilingual ballots and therefore providing them, and I’m not arguing against California providing them. My only argument is against there being a right to a bilingual ballot (because anything else is a intentional denial by the government of the right to vote) . And if every citizen has a right to a ballot in their native language or lannguage of competence , then your reasonable middle ground is not possible. Spanish speakers have no rights that Bengali speakers lack and one of a multitude of Spanish speakers in California has no rights that the lone Spanish speaker in a town in Alaskas doesn’t have.I’m not being xenophobic at all. I’m simply making a distinction between a right and a good idea. Providing multi-lingual ballots may well be a good idea and if they’re being provided as a good idea, your reasonable middle ground is possible.The fact that it’s a good idea doesn’t necesarily transform it into a right,
Dear, you may have noticed my location line…
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so I do know something about Quebec language politics, and it’s my considered opinion as an anglophone Quebecer politician that the whole thing is bloody exaggerated in the most common and out-of-date fashion. Really, when anglophone Quebecers complain about the hideous oppression they face I just have to giggle. See my posts in the GD thread linked to in the OP for further edification.
I grew up in Watsonville, CA. Most of my family is still there, and I visit a few times a year. It is far from “hard to live in Watsonville without a basic understanding of Spanish” :rolleyes: My spanish consisted of taco, burrito, tostada, enchilada, cuanto questa por uno noche para tu, and cerveza. I know more spanish now from dating several hispanic women in my current hometown, a city of half a million people, then I did from 17 years in watsonville…
Like many agriculture heavy communities, you get TONS of migrant farmworkers…oh what was that again…migrant farmworkers… wait, you mean oh they might not be US citizens??? Yep, thousands of them pass through every year, do the harvest and go home to Mexico.
Yes many of them stay, I know, I went to school with their children, in, wait for it, all english classes. ESL programs were and still are a big deal in the Pajaro Valley Unified School District. Kids that don’t speak english get taught english pretty damn quick.
Invariably, all but a handful of the permenant hispanic population speak english just fine. If you are having trouble finding an english speaking person in Watsonville you are getting fucked with. I was there for a week this summer and…amazingly…had no language problems.
Next time, so it doesn’t make you look like an idiot, carefully read the entire post before responding. I parsed your quote in order to specifically address the two words I found most important: “can’t” and “won’t”. I addressed each separately. Go back and re-read, they’re both there.
THAT is your argument? (And I quoted you in full.) Really, THAT is the best you can do? “I get mine OK, so there must not be a problem.” I mock you.
Thanks for sharing sweetie, but the rest of us who actually read these posts are already aware of this fact. You don’t need to tell us what you haven’t said. I mock you again.
Ah, “alienating” and “disenfranchising”. The heart of your argument is two malleable words open to wide interpretation.
“Is the gov’t alienating and disenfranchising a certain portion of the population by not providing them with multi-lingual ballots?” (BTW: I said that, not M.) No - the gov’t already makes very reasonable efforts to include as many citizens as possible in the process, multi-lingual ballots are not necessary.
(1) Hardly. Other than to make a weak claim you don’t even address it. (You may be surprised to learn that claiming something is a “non-issue” doesn’t automatically make it one.)
(2) Very good! I did quote it! For extra credit, can you identify which Doper I quoted?
(3) I’ll assume you meant “Failing to provide a ballot in a language that the voter understands is ensuring the voter’s vote is not counted.” Go back in this thread and read (actually read this time) doreen’s reply to the “Voting Right Act of 1965”, I’m not going to quote it in it’s entirety here. However – the gist of it is (I think), that no, failing to provide a ballot in a language that the voter understands does not mean the voter has been disenfranchised or alienated.
Possibly.
If you deny me the right to vote in the language of my choice, then yes, you have in fact made that decision for me. And if you deny my wife the right to vote in Esperanto then yes, indeed, you presume to make that decision for her.
Oh, looks like you’ve already made your decision: AFAYK Esperanto is “irrelevant here”. I mock you a thrice.
Don’t flatter yourself.
Damn Monty, you’re on a roll. You’re right! You didn’t make any comment about culture! But we’ve already been over this: you don’t actually need to tell us what you haven’t said.
Well now THAT explains quite a few things!
Yes, that’s the issue. And the answer is: no, refusing to provide multi-lingual ballots does not constitute the disenfranchisement or alienation of anybody.
“The Voting Rights act doesn’t say a word about bilingual ballots. It neither requires nor prohibits them. There is nothing to stop California from deciding it needs bilingual ballots and therefore providing them, and I’m not arguing against California providing them. My only argument is against there being a right to a bilingual ballot (because anything else is a intentional denial by the government of the right to vote) .”
Well I’m looking for the voters rights act online but the Denver Post article disagrees:
It doesn’t seem Colorado or Denver decided to include bilingual ballots, it was imposed by the federal government. I’ll see if I can find the actual law online.
Well I found this just after I posted from http://hcl.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/dye/docs/votrit65.htm :
The act was apparently ammended in 1992, so I’m not sure if this is the up to date version. Still searching…
Okay, asshole. Since I didn’t say what you pretended I said, why the fuck did you put all that bullshit up there?
Oh, I know. Becuase you’re dumber than dirt. I’m done with you.
Well I found this just after I posted from http://hcl.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/dye/docs/votrit65.htm :
The act was apparently ammended in 1992, so I’m not sure if this is the up to date version. Still searching…
Psst…CarnalK, i already posted that link and quoted that paragraph!!! 
from here: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/sec_203/activ_203.htm
we go here: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/42usc/subch_ib.htm#anchor_1973aa-1a
Let’s bold that last part and repeat it for people such as doreen
You lose.
Ever tried getting a job in Watsonville? The first question they ask is “do you speak Spanish?”. Not speaking Spanish seriously hurts your employability in Watsonville. Ever tried working in Watsonville? I did, and I good percent of my time was spent refering customers to Spanish-speaking employees because I could not help them.
I never said that nobody speaks English in Watsonville, I just said that it’s hard not to have a basic understanding of Spanish. Yes, lots of people speak English and few people who speak Spanish speak absolutely no English. Still, if you can’t understand the sign saying the store is abierto, your gonna spend a lot of time standing outside of stores waiting for them to open.
Anyway, I used Watsonville because it is close and a place I can speak about with some degree of authority, but I could have just as easily said the Mission in San Francisco or South Sacramento. There are places all around California where everyday life can be largely in Spanish, and where not speaking Spanish hurts your chance at understanding billboards and menus and signs is shops, becoming gainfully employed, and holding meaningful conversation with your neighbors.
Yaaarg Tars! I did a word check through the whole thread for “voter” to make sure someone hadn’t posted it already and I should have searched for “voting”… all that effort.
Ah well, I guess it’s tough for doreen to ignore it now. She is now officially arguing against the status quo. 
>> There are places all around California where everyday life can be largely in Spanish
Some years ago I was visiting Miami and some anglo was whinning about the Cubans taking the place over and how you couldn’t get around unless you spoke Spanish: Miami has become ‘Cuba in exile’ and we’re having to flee north and make ‘Miami in exile’ somewhere else.
IOW “I lost the argument so I’m taking my marbles and going home.” Thank you for playing. B’bye.
Well shut my mouth - there really is legislation to require multi-lingual ballots in the U.S. It’s refreshing to be wrong sometimes, keeps me on my toes.
Oh, but wait a sec… reading further from the same link we get: “(e) Definitions: For purposes of this section, the term “language minorities” or “language minority group” means persons who are American Indian, Asian American, Alaskan Natives, or of Spanish heritage.”
I knew it!!! This is exactly the narrowminded, exclusionary, racist policy I suspected was at the root of it, but tried to be polite by “not going there”. But since it’s been brought out in the open then we get to examine it for what it really is: “Multi-lingual ballots are the right of only those citizens who are ‘…American Indian, Asian American, Alaskan Natives, or of Spanish heritage.’ If you are not a member of these groups, then you do not have the right to a ballot in your native language.”
This is a stupid, racist, and divisive policy. It grants rights for only particular subgroups and/or ethnicities, while denying those same rights to other groups, again based solely on their nationality and/or heritage.
This legislation successfully disenfranchises from the voting process (nod to Monty) those people who can not read English well enough to cast a ballot but who are not “…American Indian, Asian American, Alaskan Natives, or of Spanish heritage.”
Welcome to all the recent Eastern European immigrants! And a shout out to all the Middle Easterners! Props to Renato, my Brazilian homie! You want a ballot in your own language? Fuck you all! And welcome to America!
Yep – you’re right. There really is a stupid, discriminatory law on the books stipulating who has the right to their ‘own’ ballot and who does not. I didn’t believe it and am still strongly opposed to it. But congratulations anyway, I hope that was what you we all arguing for: more stupid discriminatory laws.
I will concede I missed the amendments the first time around. (which by the way,**Tars **, you didn’t link to the first time)
But I’m funny. I thought rights were things that didn’t expire and that everyone had the same ones and you don’t gain or lose those you have under federal law by moving… Apparently, the right to a bilingual ballot is a right enjoyed by speakers of only certain languages (European languages other than Spanish are excluded, as are others), in certain areas and only until 8/6/2007 (unless it’s further amended) Now I’m wondering why in the world all the people who aren’t covered by this amendment and who have limited English proficiency haven’t done something about the discrimination against them. I am completely serious. A large part of the reason I initially felt there was no such right was becasue I did not, and still do not see on what basis a right can be granted to some non-. English speakers and not others, especially when part of the determination as to who has the right is based on the native language spoken.And I certainly did and do not see how such a law could suvive without all of those not covered going to court to seek to expand it.
Americans aren’t into Soviet- and Zimbabwe-style place name purges. Yeah, topographic features in the Southern US with names like “Ni**er Mountain” have been renamed, but it’s not as if folks find Spanish place names offensive. It’s part of a region’s hostory, just like the French place names of Louisiana, the German place names of the Midwest, the Dutch names of the Hudson River valley, and the Native American names just about everywhere in the country.
Spanish place names, when translated into English, can often sound culturally awkward. Few English speakers would name a town “Cross-Shaped Grave City” (Las Cruces), “Yellow” (Amarillo), “Rat’s Mouth” (Boca Raton), or “Pass” (El Paso). Spanish street names can sound “romantic” from a marketing street; in New Mexico, “Calle [Llamo]” and “Avenida [Llamo]” are as common in new subdivisions as “[Name] Street” and “[Name] Drive” … and they’re in subdivisions marketed towards rich gringos. Thus, the second largest city in the US isn’t “City of the Angels,” artists don’t congregate in "Saint Fe."and Denver isn’t the capital of “Ruddy.”
Wait a minute! Am I the only one who see a patern here? These are all people that were in the US territory BEFORE the US moved in. I’d say it is all fair… but that may be just me.
Escucha encima de usted el manojo de gringos ignorantes. Apenas porque usted no puede hablar el espanol no significa que no podemos hablar ingles. Apenas no tenemos gusto de ser dicha para dar arriba a nuestra madre el tounge.
Eso es apenas estupido y asi que es usted si usted piensa que debemos. Si usted no puede aprender espanol. Entonces porque usted asume obviamente que cada uno debe poder aprender ingles?
Paz…
Cervantes must be screaming in his grave… what software translated that t-keela?
:rolleyes: …a fine point indeed!
This is an example of what can be expected when one trusts a translator. My own Spanish is merely functional at best. But, it’s better than nothing, is this? I thought about corrections and decided it was better left alone.
My wife’s ESL class received material translated like this regularly.
Spanish is now a required course here (Tejas).
Peace…