Wow mswas. That has got to be a world record in changing your entire world view. I hear heating pads are good for whiplash.
Sua
It will be of no consolation to many but I do think it’s important to note Rehavam Zeevi was killed two days after he resigned from the Government. However, he was still in Office (presumably until replaced) and he was the first elected Israeli official to be killed.
The timing of the killing may be coincidental…or it may not.
I guess I never will quite work out his affinity with the tourist industry.
Rest in Peace.
Sua: You obviously did not read my post in that thread.
That’s ok though. I just said that bigotry is sometimes justified sometimes when there is a more basic goal, like the survival of you and yours. Nations are really just big gangs that glom together to protect each other. Israel is a case study in this. I never ever ever once advocated NOT shooting back. Please provide me with a direct quote where I advocated that? I never said that a dead child is not a tragedy, just that Israeli soldiers don’t drag them off the school bus to kill them.
So please, instead of posting to a thread you clearly did not understand my point of view on, please post the direct quote where either you or I made a grievous error.
Erek
A few notes:
- SuaSponte:
I disagree. While random attacks ar horrible, horrible things, targeting elected officials undermines the very fabric of government and the rule of law. They are attacks on institutions, not individuals. Disrupting the democratic process by violent means brings a civilized state one step closer to anarchy.
Plus, Ze’evi was something of a national icon. Very few people actually agreed with him, but not many could impunge his integrity and love of country. His military record alone commands a great deal of respect.
Besides, he was Yitzhak Rabin’s friend.
- Varlosz
I have a feeling Bush’s coalition will be dead within two weeks. But then, it would never have lasted long, anyway.
BTW - you’re not the only one who’s afraid. There’s a real possiblity I’ll see combat before the end of the year.
-
andros - always happy to be of service.
… and get killed, and lose the war? It’s a hard, cold fact, but in war, there is no such thing as “civilians”: there are your civilians, and there are enemy civilians. You do not kill unnecessarily, but you always remember that the only civilians you must protect are ytour own.
Unfortunately, I have evidence. Eyewitness. First hand.
No dumbass. They should be honouring the cease fire and trying to find a diplomatic solution.
Oh yes, how good does a government look if they aren’t willing to defend their citizens? Exterminate the Palestinians? Of course you can provide cites to back up your claim that this is Isreal’s goal.
tclouie, how convienant of you to post another anti-Isreal topic and provide no support to your postition. I suppose that if we put enough pressure on Isreal they will stop defending themselves and that would allow the PFLP to slowly kill all Isrealis, and that seems to be what you want.
Even though Ze’evi was kind of like a Jesse Helms of Israel, he played an important part in the government. We would be rightfully pissed if assassins took down Jesse in his Washington apartment. We would be even more pissed if we realized an organized, known terror group that we had repeatedly pursued through diplomatic means was responsible. We may even take military action to get the perpetrators.
The issue, in my book, doesn’t extend further than that. Targeted assasinations by Israel are done for their national security. Israel justifies them them by pointing out how each target is a crucial part of organizations that claim responsibility for killing Israeli civilians in bus stations, shopping malls, and restaurants. You can point no such finger to any Israeli MK, no matter how radical. Assassination of Ze’evi did not serve any purpose to promote Palestinian national security. It served no purpose except to install fear. That is the definition of terrorism.
One last thing, a kind of hijack
I will agree that Sharon has not made the best political use of these situations. But, this angers me on certain levels.
Israel has endured terror attacks for 35 years. Since the population of Israel is 4 million, and the population of the US 260 million, death of roughly 60 people by random terror has the same impact on the Israeli population as the destruction of the WTC has on ours. Many times that have died in the past year alone. Two bombings, one at a disco (killing almost exclusively teenagers) and one at a pizzeria, account for that number alone.
I know it is not a direct analogy, but the Israelis are suffering more terrorism than we could ever deem imaginable, let alone allowable or possible. We are currently bombing a country into oblivion to root out terror. While I am not advocating giving the Israelis permission to flatten the territories, I am saying that tolerating Israeli action in order to increase Israeli national security can do nothing but improve our own national security.
And this crap about Sharon being a war criminal. He oversaw a brigade of Christian Lebanese who to all accounts unbeknownest to him marched into Lebanese Palestinian refugee camp and opened fire. Several court trials have found Sharon bearing some indirect complicity, but no one has ever found evidence of him being a war criminal. If you have evidence, can you please provide a cite? Sharon has won trials in international and US courts saying as much. To the best of my knowledge, any type of international legal action against him (namely the Belgian war criminal case) has been withdrawn. I believe he is not wanted for anything by the Hague.
Yes I did.
Did you read the part of your thread here I quoted? What “basic goal” have you served by impugning an entire ethnicity as people who “like to get their children involved in those kinds of squabbles,” the “squabbles” here being gun battles?
You can define bigotry anyway you see fit, but declaring that an entire group of people like to put their children into harm’s way meets mine.
You can also define “basic goals” anyway you see fit, but typing words in an internet message board does not meet mine.
Sua
Urgh. This is not a “cold, hard fact,” it is an “opinion.” There is a significant difference between the two. Israel is, after all, a member of the United Nations, and as such, have probably heard of this.
Ahh, ok, well I guess that does sound pretty bigotted, and I didn’t mean it that way. I don’t mean that all Palestinians send their children off to throw rocks at Israeli soldiers, but the children that are killed are oftentimes killed while throwing rocks alongside their parents. You don’t see Israeli children being killed as much because Israeli’s don’t send their children to the front lines, they have soldiers for that. So no, Palestinians do love their children just like everyone else does, but there is a certain segment of hte population that puts their children in harm’s way to make their point, and then when the child is killed the Palestinian propaganda machine picks up on that and makes it sound like the Israeli military targeted them and then Western Press picks up on that and does little to correct that fallacy many times.
So I apologize to anyone for sounding bigotted. I mispoke and I didn’t mean that. I do not mean to paint all Palestinians as warmongers. However I do think that the Palestinian Authority and it’s extremist groups show a lot less restraint than the Israeli authority and their extremists.
Erek
Israel: 180 killed. Palstinians: 650 killed. Who is exactly suffering more from terrorism?
You are in violation of forum rules. Every SDMB member knows, or should know, that it is not permissible to personally abuse someone for their views in any forum but one. Go to the Pit if that’s what you like to do.
I did not claim that extermination of the Palestinians was Israel’s goal. However, I fear that the only way for Israel to militarily “win” this conflict would be by killing every single Palestinian, and Sharon seems to have gone full-tilt for a military solution. He may realize what this will require, or he may not.
To me the Israeli leadership looks pretty foolish at the moment, because their heavy-handed tactics have not worked, either in defeating the Palestinians or in insuring the safety of Israeli citizens. Those tactics have not worked for 34 years. Every time they target someone for an extrajudicial execution, or shoot a stone-thrower, or shell a school, they stir up more hatred. This war will never end unless Israel’s leaders change their thinking, or, as I’ve said, kill every last Palestinian.
And speaking of cites…where’s your cite showing that I want the PFLP to “slowly kill all Israelis,” or even that I’m anti-Israeli? If you were such a big follower of my threads, you would have read my post in another thread where I stated that both Israel and Palestine have the right to exist.
You demand cites for my supposed interpretation of Israel’s motives, yet you provide no cites for your interpretation of mine.
By the way, I do not agree that Ze’evi’s murder was more outrageous because he was a member of the government. His life was not more valuable than the lives of two 11-year-old girls, one dead and one in critical condition because Israeli forces chose to fire on their school. Nobody’s life is worth more than another’s.
By the way, as yet I have not heard any news reports justifying this “school shooting” on the grounds that Palestinian gunmen were hiding behind the children. That is a common accusation on these boards; therefore please provide a cite for this case, if one exists.
In my OP I was not applauding the Tourism Minister’s death, I was remarking (albeit sarcastically) on what I believe to be a horrendous double standard. OK? Got that?
A modest proposal to END THE WAR TODAY: just GET OUT of the West Bank and Gaza, and TAKE YOUR SETTLERS WITH YOU.
Sheer numbers mean very little. Most of the Palestinians were killed in head-on confrontations with Israeli troops. I will maintain that most of these confrontations involved some of the Palestinians firing live rounds at Israeli soldiers, necessitating a return of fire. Relatively few were killed by collateral damage.
Most of the Israelis have been killed in random terror attacks, direct attacks on settlers, the aforementioned confrontations, or drive-by shootings. Do you still wish to stand by your statement?
[Moderator Hat: ON]
adam yax said:
And you should be honoring the rules of this forum, which include a rule against insults like yours.
Got it?
Good.
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator
[Moderator Hat: OFF]
Ahh, you are only righteous in self-defense if you are LOSING?
Erek
<irony>
A modest proposal to END THE WAR TODAY: just GET OUT of the West Bank and Gaza, and TAKE YOUR SETTLERS WITH YOU.
</irony>
A large amount of the settlers that settle into the territory given the Palestinians are the hard line religious Jews. Where the irony lies in this, is that they are exempt from serving in the Israeli Military and do not even observe the Israeli memorial day.
Erek
I don’t understand why some people still choose to defend Israel and its horrible stand in Palestine. The assassination campaign by Israel is wrong. That’s it.
If people agree with the extrajudicial killings of Palestinians, they must agree with the extrajudicial killings of Israelis. If one unlawful killing is good, all unlawful killings are good. No matter who is the killer or the victim.
Mob justice is no justice at all.
Huh? Israel has identified people they believe are murdering their citizens. As far as I know, they’ve been accurate; these particular Palistinians WERE murderers. The Israelis have carefully executed a small number of these murderers. Israel can be criticized for extrajudicial execution, but it’s nothing like mob justice. Note that in every case, the Israeli executions were in response to murders committed by Palistinians.
OTOH certain Palistinians are killing random Israeli civilians, for the purpose of terrorism. These murders are being initicated by the Palistinians for political reasons. This is pure terrorism at its worst.
The difference between these two appoaches should be obvious.
I would also like to point out that the Israelis take a harsh view on Israeli terrorists acting outside of their government and do take them to task. Which the Palestinian authority most often times does not leaving the Israelis with no recourse but assassination as there is no government that actually has jurisdiction over these people. Qualifying tactics as terrorism is a slippery slope because then what do you qualify as terrorism? Some would qualify landmines, some would qualify car bombs, some assassinations, some dropping bombs on a country because it is harboring a fugitive. So when is it a terrorist action and when is it a state sponsored action?
What makes these people terrorists and not viewed as Palestinian nationals is that the Palestinian Authority does not recognize their legitimacy or endorse their movements. However the Palestinian authority does little to curb the actions of these organizations. That is the major difference between killing a member of the Israeli government and killing a terrorist. I think Sharon is taking a stance that if the Palestinian authority is unwilling to curb this violence then they will consider the PA’s complacency as an endorsement. YMMV however.
Basically the difference between the assassinations is that if a government does not like it when Israel assassinates someone they can declare war against israel, demand reparations and generally have someone to talk to. When a terrorist does it, it’s considered a criminal attack and there is no legitimate authority to talk to.
Erek
tclouie,
IF unilaterally exiting the West Bank and Gaza would “end the war”, Israel would certainly do so. Do you really think it would? Israel offered more, it was turned down. All Israel is looking for is peace and has offered up a lot to get it. Some Palestinians would be content, now, with the West Bank, Gaza, and some part of Jerusulam. Others would continue to kill, because “all of Israel should be theirs.” Until the Palestinian authority proves that they can control the violence, and are willing to turn over terrorists, they are endorsers, harborers, and accomplices, who cannot be dealt with. And I’m a dove!
efrem,
If people agree with the extrajudicial killing of members of Al Qui’ta, then they should agree with the extrajudicial killings of Americans.