If targeted killings are "right", why is killing an Israeli extremist "wrong"?

[DocCathode]

*Originally posted by efrem *

Do you have an hour? If not I’ll sum it up for you.

1. Stop the persicution of Palestinians in all forms (that inculdes murder)

2. Remove all Israeli forces from Palestine (which includes settlements).

Define the borders of Palestine. Now, why should the Israeli government accept those borders? Further if the right and moral thing is for Israel to return that land, should the USA return Texas and New Mexico to Mexico?

Unite strong ties with my Arabs neighbors (incudling the newly formed Palestine).

  Again, Jordan ejected the Palestinians. Several "Arab Neighbors" have refused to accept any Palestinians. Since Palestine would, presumably, be located on land Israel won in war with Jordan, why wouldn't Jordan annex the new Palestine and eject the Palestinians?

4. Share the city of Jerusalem and declare it a city for both peoples to live in peace.

Israel is already doing this. Note that Muslim access to the Dome Of The Rock is controlled by Palestinians, not the Israelis. By contrast, When Jordan controlled Jerusalem they signed an armistice agreement which promised Jews access to the Western Wall. Not one Israeli was allowed to do so.

Did you expect him to find that acceptalbe? If he really wants freedom for his people it will be for “all” of them not just “most”. It will be either “all” of Palestine now or “all” of Palestine later after 10 more years of death and opression.

Since he was offered nearly everything he had ever asked for, I expected him to say yes. The above 1949 armistice gave Jordan control of the holiest site in Judaism. Israel signed.

Well maybe, if Israel stoped the daliy assassinations of Palestinians they wouldn’t be so radical. Like I said before, to befriend them as brothers is the only way to safeguard Israel’s future. To keep killing them is to invite terrorism and even more death.

Israel is targeting known, and in many cases admitted, terrorists. Yes, some civilians have been ACCIDENTALLY killed. Palestinian terrorists INTENTIONALLY kill civilians. The list again-mall, disco, beach, pizzaria. Do you see the difference?

[Efrem]

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
Well, considering that Israel is targeting terrorists and murderers, it would be really easy to get Israel to stop, right, Efrem? Stop terrorizing and murdering Israelis and the gov’t won’t kill you.

There is so many things wrong with that statement.

1. Israel isn’t targeting terrorists and murderers, they are targeting people who they claim are terrorists and murderers. There is no trial, there is no chance of defence, just a bullet in the head…No wait, make that a missile through your house.

However, that is a nice slogan isn’t it: If you don’t want to be killed, stop making us suspect you.

If you agree that Israel has a right to kill any Palestinians who they believe pose a threat. Then you must agree that Palestinians can kill any Israeli who they believe pose a threat to Palestine. If one unlawful killing is good then they all are. For more information please read my earlier postings (also here are some assassination links 1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

2. In Israel’s quest for blood, totally innocent people are being killed. For every rocket they shoot at “a threat” two bystanders die. This is wrose then state-sponsered terrorism, this is state terrorism.

As for Jerusalem, it’s part of Israel.

To say this you are compltely ignoring the fact that East Jerusalem is not Israeli, please come to terms with this fact. The world and even Israel’s largest backer (the US) doesn’t reconize Israel’s occupation of Arab East Jerusalem.

[Captain_Amazing]

Originally posted by efrem *
** There is no trial, there is no chance of defence, just a bullet in the head…No wait, make that a missile through your house.*

What would you prefer they do? Send troops in to sieze the people, which would put the soldiers’ lives at risk? Trust on Yasser Arafat’s “police” to arrest them, knowing that then they’ll be back out on the street in 24 hours? The targeted assassinations aren’t the best policy, maybe, but I have no idea what better althernative there is.

In Israel’s quest for blood, totally innocent people are being killed. For every rocket they shoot at “a threat” two bystanders die. This is wrose then state-sponsered terrorism, this is state terrorism.

And this is different than what the Palestinians are doing in what way? Oh yeah, when an Israeli soldier kills an innocent civilian, there’s an investigation and he or she is liable to b punished. Meanwhile, when a Palestinian kills an innocent civilian, he gets praised. Maybe he gets a medal.

To say this you are compltely ignoring the fact that East Jerusalem is not Israeli, please come to terms with this fact. The world and even Israel’s largest backer (the US) doesn’t reconize Israel’s occupation of Arab East Jerusalem. **

Would you prefer that Israel give East Jerusalem back to Jordan? Let me refresh your memory. Jordan, along with the rest of Israel’s neighbors, attacked Israel. They lost, fairly spectacularly, and Israel occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem. I suppose Israel could give the land back to Jordan. Of course, that same day, the US should give New Mexico and Arizona back to Mexico, and most of Western Poland will be annexed by Germany, etc.

[edwino]

efrem: Your suggestions could be dismissed as sheer naiviete, if they weren’t exactly what the Arab world is pushing and the EU sometimes seems to gobble up.

What you are essentially suggesting is that Israel should appease terrorism. Israel has been shafted repeatedly in negotiations, and what you are suggesting is that instead of waiting for any kind of reciprocity whatsoever, Israel should just go ahead and unilaterally declare peace with the hope that others fall into line. Besides having no popular support on either side of the Green Line, things don’t happen like that in the Middle East. If Israel were to back out of the region without serious guarantees of lasting peace from anyone (even the UN, but they haven’t been able to do the job in Lebanon), then what you are basically calling for is for the Jews to turn out the lights and get on boats and go back to Europe.

You see, your suggestions address no root causes. You may think they address root causes – get Israel out of the territories and give money to the Arabs – but they don’t. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have said repeatedly that they will not settle for negotiated peace. These are not fringe organizations, and have lots of Arab backing. Sure Israel can hand their asses to them on a platter now, but how about when Israel is 10 miles wide just north of Tel Aviv and has no early warning or military observers in Palestine? And don’t act like they won’t have anything to grumble about after Israel is out of the territories. How about right of return for over 1 million refugees? How about not just internationalization of Jerusalem but full Palestinian sovereignty? (what Arafat requested at Camp David, mind you) How about the Golan? Release of militants from Israeli prisons? How about the Sheba’a Farms? The list could go on and on.

Arab East Jerusalem is also a bit of a misnomer. The Old City, which contains the Western Wall and the Dome of the Rock, is sacred to Christianity (the Holy Sepulchre is there as well), Islam, and Judaism. When under the control of Jordan (only from 1948-1967, and that has been the last time in recent memory that it has been in Arab control, as the Ottomans controlled it before the British), all the synagogues were destroyed and Jews were forbidden access to their holiest sites. Even in times of war, Israel has let Muslims onto the Temple Mount (Haram al-Sharif).

The Muslim Waqf in Jerusalem is currently excavating thousands of tons of rubble off of Temple Mount (including Herodean Temple artifacts, perhaps) in order to expand a mosque in the Crusader Solomon’s Stables. This has weakened some of the walls around the Dome of the Rock. They justify this by explaining that Jews have no connection or right to any of Jerusalem. Add to this their claims on Muslim connections to such places as the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem (because Jesus was a prophet), Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, Tomb of Joseph in Nablus (which after the Israelis left was promptly looted, the Torah scrolls burned, and turned into a mosque), and other sites holy to not only Jews but Christians as well.

I’m not saying that Jerusalem isn’t holy to the Muslims. What I am saying is that the Muslims in this area have a bad track record of denying anyone else’s claims of holiness on the area.

Now I am not trying to paint a group of people with a broad brush here. I am just speaking from past events of this century, and saying that the Muslim Waqf in Jerusalem, the PA, and Jordan do not have the best record in terms of guaranteeing access. So it is hard to justify just turning the keys over to them. Given the tension in the area, it would be hard to convince an international monitoring group to come in without some kind of hard and fast peace treaty. This intolerance and vitriol goes along with having no precedence of long-term moderate regimes, suppression of fundamentalism, long-term relationships with Israel, and guarantees of Israeli security. These all combine to make your suggested course of action nearly laughable, if it weren’t bandied around seriously in courts of world opinion.

Had to get that off of ma chest.