I just don’t get that part.
Either there’s already too many people for the country to absorb or there isn’t.
Well, it isn’t like there is only one right answer to this question, as in 2+2=X.
It all depends on how you analyze the situation and what goals you are trying to accomplish. With the guest worker program, the idea is to bring the existing illegal aliens into the light of day, so to speak, so that we can have some handle on who they are and what they are doing here. I think the “too many people for the country to absorb” is a reflection more of xenophobia than a realistic assessment of the situation.
I also think it’s a regional problem - obviously Texas and California have problems with too many illegals - but Michigan apple picking season needs lots of “guest” mexicans to do the job.
Also, the guest worker program would allow for the taxation of wages which would then be used to alieviate the burden placed on communities by immigrants who access hospitals, schools, etc.
Again, it depends on how you look at it. I don’t think many illegal aliens come up here to sit on their asses. Most are working, so do we have too many? Hard to say. We only have “too many” if you define your goals in a certain way. If our goal is to keep CA a major agricultural state, maybe we have too few.
Plenty of illegals have their wages taxed. We employed a gal from Mexico who was found to be illegal (but she had papers that looked all right). We paid all employment taxes on her.
Of course, since she never did and never will file a tax return, the gov’t gets to keep that money.
Say… there’s an idea…
That’s true, but there are other illegal immigrants, especially laborers, who are getting paid in cash under the table. These people don’t pay taxes. If there was a guest worker program the labor force could be more regulated and these taxes collected. Such a program could also provide laborers with a level of protection from abusive employers and unsafe working environments, but that is another debate.
Only if you can also control the border. Without getting into a debate about whether or not illegal aliens pay taxes (I think that largely they do), we do have a two-tier system in the US-- legal workers and illegal workers. I bet that if we create a guest worker program, we’ll end up with a three-tier system-- citizen workers, legal guest workers, and illegal workers. More and more unskilled people coming into the country creates a surplus of low wage workers, and employers are going to exploit that. We’ll have to get really, really tough on enforcement to stop it, and I don’t know that we have the stomache for that.
It’s a good question. If you listen to business, and pro-illegal immigration people on these boards, it turns out illegals pay taxes and they’re not a burden on society. It turns out we need 20 million illegal workers.
What I don’t understand then, is why must they be illegal? Why not import 20 million legal workers?
It seems there is something magical & special & critically important that they be illegal, and I’m genuinely interested in why.
First, let me state that this is only my opinion, but I have heard a lot of the arguements pro and con to guest workers. I claim residence in Florida, so there are a lot of illegal (undocumented) workers there.
Here is what I see it boil down to: We need people to pick oranges, strawberries, apples, and wash dishes. Trouble is that a lot of these jobs, such as working in the fields, really can’t pay much. The landowners really don’t know if there will be enough oranges, for example, to pay the cost of growing them, let alone picking and packing them. Officially, the US has laws that say an employer must pay a minimum wage, offer workmans compensation, etc. The undocumented workers don’t ask for that. They can and will work for much less than most American are willing to accept. Also, some employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers don’t have to pay for things like insurance or retirement. Some, maybe even most of the workers don’t pay taxes. The advantage to the US is that they can’t use the resoursces that legal American workers can use. They can’t file suit in a civil court for instance, because they aren’t supposed to be here to begin with. They can’t call the police if they have been robbed, again, for fear of being deported. They can’t even use the state sponsered medical facilities (except in one state) because they are not here legally.
Americans can say that because they are not a drain on the resources, and because they are doing jobs we cannot or will not do, they shouldn’t be here (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)but since they are we can exploit them. Most have families to support back in their home countries that they support. The money they earn goes back to support those families for the most part.
So here is the thing, if you are willing to take none of the benifits of being an American, and are working hard in this country, there should be some way we can repay you for your hard work. The best our country can offer you is documentation. Someday these undocumented workers can have a legal job and protection under the Bill of Rights.
It will still be illegal to sneak across the border. These people still risk deportation if caught, but those that make it and can stay for a number of years will get some sort of protection from our country.
I am not a wordsmith, so this will be trashed by others, but that is what I feel is right.
Sgt Schwartz
I agree that we are at risk of creating a three tier system, I’m just explaining the reasoning I’ve heard for the guest worker program.
I think that if a program was instituted it would have to be couple with both better border enforcement (which theoretically should be easier because there would be fewer people crossing illegally) and stricter and more serious punishment of **employers ** who violate the law.
If it’s so irrelevant that millions of poor unskilled laborers sneak in, then why is it so long and arduous to get papers for high tech workers? Those people, computer experts, medical doctors, etc. are kept out because we are too full, but the millions don’t matter. How does that compute? If we are admitting defeat on the illegals, why not speed up the legal portion and make that more attractive?
I think there are quotas for each country of origin, but I can’t find a cite yet.
My BIL is Australian, very smart, has been here for years, holds a BA, MA and PhD from major US universities, taught at one of the top west coast universities, been paying US taxes for over a decade, married to a US citizen… and couldn’t get a green card for years. It was ridiculous.
What, too many Aussies clogging up our job markets? Please.
Skilled, high-tech workers cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Illegal immigrants cost $, often $0.25, and definitely less than minimum wage.
The problem is fundamentally a political one. The corporations that pour big money into election campaigns want a steady supply of cheap grunt labor, and illegal immigrants are perfect for being (a) cheap to pay and (b) easy to keep in place. Unfortunately, said politicians need a new wedge issue to bring out their voters for the November elections, and since we already had “stop gay marriage” in 2004, it’s now time for “stop the illegal immigrants.”
A few misconceptions:
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“Illegals” aren’t paid the same as “legals”; usually not true- not because the employers are altruistic, but paying all your empoyees more or less the same provides “plausable deniability” when the INS raids. If you are paying the 4 “Illegals” in your workforce half the pay of your 4 legal braceros, and even paying them less than MW, you’ll be in seriously deep shit.
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“Illegals” don’t pay or file taxes: Well, in general, any lower income large family isn’t going to pay much in FIT anyway. Many Illegals will have an ITIN for filing their income taxes and a fake SSN for employment reasons. Of course- *everyone * pays sales taxes and such. Most “Illegals” file their taxes- many of them get a large write off for their family in Mexico to which they are sending 75% of their income. Most get 100% of the Witholding they paid in back
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“Illegals” get paid cash “under the table”: No doubt, and so do citizens born in the USA for 5 generations. I wouldn’t be suprised if the % of “Illegals” getting paid in cash is slightly higher, but if someone here claimed it was a lot higher, I’d need to see a couple of good solid cites.
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Farm labor pay is crap; No, in fact it’s not bad at all. A good worker in the strawberry fields (considered by all to be the bottom of the totem pole in Agri work, aka “la fruta del Diablo”) can get $150 a day, and work for 6 days, grossing $900/week. That’s for the WORST and lowest paid job in the fields. However, it’s hard, backbreaking work, which when the weather is nice isn’t so bad, but when the weather is bad is hellish. It isn’t the pay so much as the work that is required to get that pay. I’ve done it- breifly- no thanks. Not for twice that. Of course, if it was that or starve, I’d be out there.
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Illegal aliens keep our produce prices much lower; no, only around 5%.
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Illegals are a burden on society: True, but also true of any lower income person, citzen or illegal. In fact, only the wealthy usually pay more in than they get back.
Thank you, thank you, for pointing this out.
I’m so sick of hearing, “illegals work shitty jobs for a dollar/day.”
I live in an area filled with lots of illegals & legal immigrants working these so-called “jobs Americans won’t do.” These are not stupid people and they don’t work for shitty pay.
Americans stupid or unfortunate enough to have to work at McDonalds are well, stupid. Or just ignorant of much of the work available out there.
When I was young & healthy & willing to work hard for cash, I’d have jumped at the chance to go make $150/day for four or five hours’ work in the fields, instead of having seemingly no choice but to sign up with a temp agency and get farmed out to factories every day, where the work really sucks, and you get minimum wage.
You’re welcome. But it is more like 8+ hours in the fields.
Not always. Migrants don’t get paid for 8 hours of work, they get paid for completing the amount of work they agreed to. If it gets hot during the day, you risk heat stroke. So you start working around 4AM, and you’re done by 8 or 9, before the sun gets too hot.
Not always, and not everywhere, of course. But I’ve spoken with people who can make $150/day by contracting to say, band around four furrows of cauliflower. Or whatever it’s called. If they can get it done in four or five hours, they’re done. Then they go to their second job.
True, the best workers are “piece workers” and their work day depends on many factors.
And there is serious competition for picking jobs. The top of the “picking ladder” is artichokes- tough work but the most money.