Following your definition, to be an atheist one would have to believe nothing exists, and theists need only believe that anything exists. If I am to believe or disbelieve in a god, I need something a bit more substantive in the way of a definition.
Seems pretty arrogant to try to imbue a “supreme being” with human traits.
Oi!
So, if we agree that we cannot know the nature of a god, how can we have an opinion as to said god’s existence?
How can we have an opinion? Easy. Look around; many people have opinions on things they don’t have any knowledge of. Maybe most people.
My daddy usta say, “Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one, but no one wants to hear anyone else’s.”
Pardon my rudeness.
Ev 4 EvR
EvanS, what does “created in his image” mean?
Anyway, I think it’s more like god was “created” in man’s image.
If you want an answer for that, you should ask the men who wrote it, or those who believe it, not me.
Judeo-Christianity isn’t the only religion around, you know, although in San Antonio that may not be a popular position. Few religions have God creating Man “in His image.” And a vast majority of religions have gods who are not in man’s image either.
If there is a god, then that god is the way it is in spite of what we mere mortals believe or disbelieve.
As far as illusions about god and its existance, with all the different descriptions and attributes about god the odds have it that most of them are wrong. (If not all of them…)
So, what’s your point?
EvanAgain
EvanS, I was addressing your comment re arrogance and imbuing human traits on a “supreme being.” Thought you were taking a Xian stance. Confused here 
I think you mis understand my definition, I said the word God, means what exists.I didn’t say"a" God. According to the Bible, Moses(who is not proven to be a Historical person) Asked God who he was, His answer was" I am what is",To me that means not “a” being, but being. The scientists say we are all made of the same stuff as the stars. As an example: I refer again to the ocean, from the smallest drop to the whole ocean it is all water. I do not believe in the Ocean, I know it is there,and I also know I can take out the smallest drop,it would still be water,and it wouldn’t change the make up of the ocean. One doesn’t believe in their own exsistance they know they exist Theists believe God is a separate being, some thing other than how I see, or interpet the word God.
Monavis
I don’t think I misunderstand your definition. You appear to be a pantheist, which is a kind of theist. My problem with the pantheist position is that if God is identical with “all” then you are really just calling “all” by another name. I also think I understand that you further feel that a consequence of identifying God with “all” is that “all” is sacred.
I too am susceptible to feelings of reverence and awe when confronting the brute fact of the existence of the vast universe and the wonder of life, the mysteries of consciousness, etc.
I do not, however, proceed from these emotions to making unsupportable assertions about the underlying nature of reality.
(I’m leaving cyberspace for the weekend. I hope we can continue this dialogue Monday)
I was just trying to say that if we imagine a set of traits, then expect a supreme being (who may or may not even notice us – depends on who you ask) to adhere to these traits if we are to allow for that beings existance (for example: “If people are beheaded and God doesn’t save them then God is just the imaginings of believers”), then we are putting ourself in the position of creating god.
If there is a God (by the most universal description of God), then God is going to be the way it is, and hardly needs us to impose conditions on its existance. If anything, it is us not doing such a good job in:
[ol]
[li]Determining if there even is a God,[/li][li]Determining what the attributes of that God might be.[/li][/ol]
Although I think that the teachings of Jesus were generally productive, sensible and humanitarian teachings, I won’t take a stance supporting any extant Christian organized religion till I find one that supports some of his key teachings.
If you check my postings in the faith thread, you’ll see I have no faith, but I am very open-minded as to the nature of existance, I think.
Perhaps we were miscommunicating? Hope this helps clarify my comments; I was a bit confused as well. (insert appropriate smiley)
EvnEv
Mon I think I understand your position and your references completely, and have even made the same connection when reading the Pentateuch.
With the New Physics-type descriptions of matter and energy and our place in the Universe, I think it fits, too.
Do you think this viewpoint might also fit with this viewpoint I posted earlier?
(I think it got lost in the shuffle - or maybe it had no merit?)
Ev36
Mind if I jump in?
I don’t see mon as making unsupportable assertions, but speculating on one possibility. I do much the same thing. I have no faith in anything but my experience, and that only as my experience, not a representation of reality. I don’t know, nor pretend to know what reality is, nor what God is if there is a god.
I don’t see mon 's position as pantheist, if I understand pantheism, but more leaning to universal (though not universalist) in that god exists in, with and simultaneous with the energy/matter state of the universe. Pantheism more assigns portions of god to specific things, no?
Ev an my Shadow…
This is very close to what I mean, except I would not use the “a” God. I would subsitute the word, and say existance.
You are close to what I mean. I would not use the Word"A" God; Iwould use existance. That would mean our universe, the cosmos,or other universes if they exist. I think it more than a coincidence that we are all mde up of the same things,Just a difference in DNA amounts.
Monavis
OK, we are on the same page. Perhaps I miscommunicated some details, but yes, I can relate to the idea of “Existence” (let’s give it a capital “E”) being God (with a capital “G”).
At least better than an old man with a white beard living up in a cloud…
Maybe I’m not getting this across, or missing something you and Monavis are saying, but calling Existence God (caps used reluctantly) just seems to be giving it another name, not saying anything substantive about it. It’s neither true nor false. The mean old man in the sky story is at least a real proposition.
I think it’s called a ‘definition.’
No, that’s way bogus. Surely belief in god is more than meaning a belief in the definition of a word. If that’s all you believe in you look like a goddamn atheist to me.
I’m still on the fence regarding the existence of god or gods. My husband is strongly atheist, but I’m not sure I can completely jump over to the other side. I will say that, particularly in debates, I find it very offensive when people refer to said deity or deities as the “Sky Fairy” or similar, not because I think it’s sacrilege, but because deliberately insulting someone else’s beliefs in such a manner in the middle of a debate regarding said beliefs indicates that at least one person will not take the debate seriously. Why open a debate only to insult your opponent?
Anyway, like I said, I’m still on the fence about the existence of something all-powerful, or even semi-powerful. For personal reasons, I’m not quite willing to give up hope, but intellectually, it’s difficult to maintain any belief, and like Losbang, if someone were to conclusively prove that some sort of diety exists, I’m not sure it would make a difference. I mean, if a god created us, maybe he did so only for his or her amusement so they could watch us beat the crap out of each other. Or maybe it really does love us, but lost control somewhere. Or perhaps it does have a particular destiny for us, but just hasn’t been kind enough to let us in on it so we can worship said god appropriately, and it’s setting some of us up for a big fall, which would be really horrible. But thinking that way depresses me, so I’d prefer to hold out some sort of hope; unfortunately, I’m not quite sure what I’m hoping for.
I can’t consider myself a member of any major monotheistic religion because I don’t consider myself more right than others, and I certainly wouldn’t wish other people to go to a place of neverending torture simply because they made the mistake of not believing in a god who rarely if ever shows his or her face (in fact, I consider that downright understandable), or if that god does show its face and we just don’t realize it, said god never bothers to correct us.