It deosn’t make any sense to release cows and pigs into the wild, that would be just as ecologically destructive. Most vegans I know don’t think zoos are all that cool either.Are vegans essentially proposing that these species be eliminated?
No more than people who don’t eat dogs or snakes are advocating the extinction of those species.
If we just let cows and pigs into the wild what do you think will happen to them?
MOOOOOOO then a rat would kill it. A cow is friggen harmless.
Since a switch to vegitarianism would not happen overnite, ranchers would just raise less & less meat animals. And more & more milk & fleece animals. The dead milk or fleece animals would be used for pet food. It would not be a big deal, really*. Now, a switch to veganism would cause some wierd stuff, & I am not prepared to guess.
- assuming it happened gradually enough
Domestic animals don’t necessarily die if released in the wild.Feral pigs already present an ecological problem in some Pacific islands. They root up and kill native plant species.
These animals don’t have a “natural” habitat anymore. If we didn’t use them, what would become of them?
m3, you are absolutely right. Turkey farmers, for example, raise flocks of turkeys so large that thousands of them go to slaughter at a time. Food animals exist in much, much greater quantity and different conditions than dogs and snakes. If we did all quit eating animals, we’d still have to eat up the ones that are in the pipeline, so to speak.
That’s “what will happen to domestic animals” :o
OK, spoke to a vegan friend of mine about this today. She does not claim to speak for all vegans or for anyone other than herself. She says (and I’m paraphrasing) if people suddenly all stoppoed consuming animals and animal products, it would probably indicate a sudden understanding of the ethical problems posed by that consumption, and that we would support the animals as we would pets, including drastic reduction in or halting of breeding. She wouldn’t have too much of a problem if the species became extinct as a result; better that they go extinct on their own than be exploited to death.
Thanks for the research Otto.
The response hasn’t been what I’d hoped. At least I did get one (2nd hand) reply, though.
I guess a sort of species euthanasia is being proscribed (or prescribed take your pick). I can see the logic, but it seems as controversial as any kind of euthanasia to me.
If any vegans want to explain their position any differently, I’m still listening.
OTTO: Domestic animals can not go “extinct on their own”. After making many species helpless, if we stopped raising them, the fault of extinction would be ours. PS, what are you gonna feed your cats?
Well, Otto, I can only hope that your friend one day gains a “sudden understanding” of the economics of owning a farm. Just who, exactly, does she think is going to foot the bill for keeping these animals as “pets”?
Farmers have a lot of money invested in their domestic stock. They don’t get that money back if they decide to keep a big herd of “pets” in their pastures.
Make no mistake about it. If we stop eating cows, cows go extinct. They are not equipped to go feral, and even if they were, there is not adequate habitat for them.
Hogs can easily go feral. Unfortunately, it is at tremendous cost to the environment, as they are highly destructive animals. Ask the folks in Hawaii.
I have never understood how vegans, who are so concerned with the ethics of our treatment of animaals, have no problem with sterilizing them, which, let’s face it, is a form of mutilation. But that’s another debate, I guess.
If through epiphany concern for animal welfare rose to this level, it’s probable that there would be a corresponding concern that they not starve to death.
As for “mutilating” animals by sterilizing them, it’s the responsible method of controlling the population.
OTTO, I ask you again,if there are no more animals raised or used for their meat, what do we feed our cats? I’m prepared to go OV veg., and w/ supplements I could survive a vegan diet, but I’ll go to hell with my hands wrapped around somebodies neck if I am forced to starve my cat buddies to death. We have a deal, they love & entertain us, we love, entertain AND feed them.
And how do you see that concern translated into action? A “save the cows” tax to compensate farmers? A cow in every apartment? Where are the cows going to live? Are you going to sterilize them all, and let them go extinct?
And speaking of sterilization, I sure would love to get a pet’s take on that “humane” procedure. I hope I am never treated so humanely. :eek:
If this situation comes about, I’ll worry about how to pay for the care and feeding of the animals. I’m not gonna worry about it until then, since I have no confidence that the majority of carnivores will do the right and ethical thing and stop murdering animals. You may all continue to argue amongst yourselves instead of expecting me to defend an argument which I did not advance in the first place. I really should know bwtter by now than to talk with people while the blood drips from their mouths. Bye now.
As a carnivore not planning to give up meat before my cardiologist or my proctologist tells me to, I have to suggest that "what will happen to the poor animals if we stop killing them is a pretty weak argument against vegetarianism, veganism, or even “compassionate carnivorism” (I just coined that. Whatcha think?).
I’d further suggest that Otto’s friend is not too far off the mark. The probability that for some unexplained reason the world collectively and instantaneously decided to stop consuming meat products is sufficiently low that it is not much of a leap further to suggest that the people making such a collective decision might also be inspired to find a humane way of dealing with the existing livestock, whether through volunteerism, some sort of government intervention or otherwise.
Perhaps the anti-vegetarians should try again.
Now if you’ll excuse me, there’s some fois gras with my name on it in Soho.
Grumble grumble ruthless murdering plant-killers grumble grumble
Sorry that folks misunderstood and didn’t realize Otto was just speaking for a friend. I was going to mention this, but I figured he would rather stick up for himself.
I’m not making an anti-vegan argument until a vegan actually explains their view themselves. I just want to know if they believe that these animals have a reason to exist and if so under what capacity. Yes, we could all take care of them as pets ans sterilize them I suppose. Thats not the issue to me. I just want to know if the species should become extinct in the long run. It doesn’t matter whether it happens overnight or not. It only matters that it happens eventually.
It doesent matter that the animals would rather be exploited than killed.
As long as you dont eat the animal anything else isint exploitation. Hmm id think that the real problem with a mass switch is there would be about %5 of enough b12 vitamin to go around
Speaking of “exploitation,” I’ve always had a problem with the way vegetarians bandy that word about.
Is a lion “exploiting” the animals it kills? If so, does that make the lion evil?
Would we be on the right side of the moral divide if we just hunted animals instead of keeping them on farms? (Or would that be exploitation, too?)
What about the species of ants that keeps colonies of aphids for “milk” (actually excrement). Are these ants “exploiting” the aphids?
Any vegetarians out there who care to do so, please provide me with your definition of “exploitation”.