The modern pagan religions have borrowed many things from ancient Greece where the pentagram was used.
Daniel said:
Yes, but who says a witch must be a Satanist? Oh, wait, that’s right – Christians.
Witchcraft didn’t used to be associated automatically with Satanism. Spirits and familiars and other “unChristian” things, yes, but not Satan. That happened later, as witchcraft persecutions increased. But today I don’t think that most intelligent people assume witchcraft = Satan worship.
Daniel, I’m done arguing with you, since you feel the need to keep lumping all Pagans together. You said:
“Paganism is a good based, earth based religion, which should be more widely recognized & less vilified. But you folks are part of the problem.”
(sorry, haven’t figured out the quotes thing yet)
You folks? :rolleyes: We are obviously at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to what we believe. I know that most Christians don’t like being called “Fundies”, and when I talk religion with someone of the Christian faith, I politely ask which branch, so I can get some idea of where they’re coming from. I don’t expect most people to know the difference between Celtic Wicca and Eclectic Wicca, so when I do offer information, it’s pretty general.
I’m going to agree to disagree with you, and let it be at that. If you’d like to discuss this further with me, you can reach me at brea_aire@hotmail.com .
Hello.
I’ll probably agravate a few people, but that is a habit of mine and it isn’t intentional. Being a pagan, I do have to agree a bit with this statement. The more outwardly exposed you are on any belief; whether Christian, Jew, or Wiccan, you run the risk of having others persecute you. It’s just a fact.
That said, I’ll throw my two bits in. I believe that most people use the word witch interchangeably with Wiccan because it is a power word. It evokes and encourages a response and a feeling of some kind. Some good some bad. I don’t apply it to myself because I don’t think I’ve studied enough. My wife however is definitely a witch. She can tell what herb and what part of it to use for almost any illness. She can identify plants and harvest them at the correct times. That to me is what brings the whole tie between witch wicca wise.
The pentagram I enjoy because I live in Texas and it is everywhere. Furniture, the Capital, Christmas decorations…I like the irony. I’ve actually never seen a good history on the symbol and just haven’t devoted the resources to find out for myself.
Five does seem to be a pretty common number through much of nature so it makes sense to use a symbol that expresses five; from the common depiction of the heavenly lights to the inner core of the fruit of knowledge. Most nature based religions deal with the four directions and then with a fifth either representing the personal spirit or the Great Spirit. Of course, you can also tag on Mother Earth and Father Sky bringing it to seven as some traditions do.
Anyway, I would be interested in knowing who actually used this symbol and how. I would assume Satanist didn’t lay first claim to it but rather perverted it in a manner similar to turning crosses upside down or as you mentioned the swastika. I almost find it sad that once an event taints a symbol, idea, or place; it is as if all prior history has disappeared. Culture is much to rich to let that happen IMHO.
Cheers
gkj
Brea, btw, it’s not quite true that the pentacle with the horns reversed is a satanic symbol; I’ve seen non-Satanist Neopagans using it both ways. They have different ritual significances, though, and I believe Satanists use the inverted pentacle exclusively, so you’re part right.
Daniel, the pentacle is one of the most ancient symbols in existence, and we have as much right to it as the Satanists (and for that matter, the Muslims, who use a five-pointed star as one of their religious symbols) do.
Folks: I just went thru several referance books, including
“the Goddesses & Gods of Old Europe” “Faery Wicca”, “Ancient Christian Magic” “Ancient Celtic Magic” and “the Ancient & Shining Ones”. I also went thru some of my old anthropology texts. There is no Pagan Pentagram pictured or listed in any of these books(except one). There are quite extensive lists of Pagan Goddesses, with their symbols, and there is not a pentagram in the lot. Now, in “the Ancient & Shining Ones”, there are some listing for Pentagrams. One is on a section re modern Paganism & Witchcraft, another in “Ceremonial Magick” (where it is stated this has roots in Christianity &the Qabala), and a possible note under “Qabala”. There is no anthopological or historical evidence of the Pentagram being used Pre-Christianity (except the Qabala, or Kabbala, which is not a Pagan source), and those after Christianity all have roots in that or Satanism. The Muslims DO use the 5 pointed Star, but again, not a Pagan source. Let’s have some facts here, let’s have someone come up with a pre-Christian Pagan use, from an Anthopological source.
David B: in an earlier thread I mentioned the history of the word “Witch”. Per the OED, from the time “witch” was a separate word (about the 1500’s) it was associated with Satanism. Perhaps you are right, in that it was the Christians that modified the old root word “wicce” which included but was not limited to those having dealings with spirits & demons, and coined a new word which was limited to
Satanists & their ilk, but it has meant that for some 400 years. Modern day Satanists continue to call themselves “witches”. That meaning is still the first meaning in 3 dictionaries I checked, including the Oxford Illus. If the modern pagans want to call themselves “witches”, and try to change the meaning of the word, fine, but why bother? The word is loaded with negative connotations & meanings. It was never used in ancient times to refer to Pagan Priestess & magicians. Why not just use “Wiccan”?
And Brea, I am trying not to lump you in, but you did start your first post in this thread with “First, yes, I’m a Witch”. Your posts show reason & intelligence, and I would like to continue debating with you.
Daniel said:
Well, what can I tell you – sometimes even the OED is wrong.
I just finished a book that discussed, in some detail, a history of witch trials (specifically the trial of one Anne Gunter). In that book, the author, James Sharpe, a professor of history at York University who has written extensively on crime, punishment, and witchcraft, discusses exactly what I said – while witchcraft was not thought of as Christian by any means, it was not associated with Satan right away either. That kind of evolved into it.
(Incidentally, the book in question is The Bewitching of Anne Gunter: A Horrible and True Story of Deception, Witchcraft, Murder, and the King of England.)
DavidB: my respect for your wisdom & knowledge (but not nessesarily your opinion) is great, but if I had to pick whether a lone Professor OR the entire staff of experts & Professors who write & edit the OED, was wrong, I would have to choose the lone Professor. This does not mean that all those accused of being “witches” by the Inquistion & that ilk, were Satanists, by any means. And there is a diffenance between “witchcraft” and a “witch”, as those who perfom “witchcraft” are not nesssarily “witches” in the std meaning of the term.
The book sounds interesting tho, and I’d like to read it, and even add it to my Library. Available thru usu sources?
Fast post, dude!
Well, when the “lone professor” is an expert in the field and explains the entire history and who has gone over countless historical documents in his studies, I’d go with him in a second over some folks who put together a dictionary.
Yes, the book is available wherever. When it first came out, I saw it at Barnes & Noble. I know it’s on Amazon or any of the other booksellers.com.
Perhaps you are referring to Umbanda? This is a syncretic religion mixing aspects of Catholicism, West African religions, and native Brazilian religions. It’s very mystical, with numerous gods and saints, spirit possession, etc., etc.
However, most pagans/wiccans I know seem to be emphatically non-Christian, and reject all the main tenets of Christianity. Umbanda practitioners generally consider themselves to be Catholics, and do not see any contradiction in believing in both religions.
Brea & gkj, welcome! Always good to have a few more pagans around. 
I do not refer to myself as a witch because, like gkj, I don’t know enough yet. I also wear a necklace with the right-side-up-star-inside-a-circle. I refer to it as a “pentacle.” The term “pentagram” somehow got mixed up with the Satanist thing. Calling it a “pentacle” seems to offend people less. :::shrug:::
The witches/Wiccans/Pagans I have met since I chose this path have been nothing but kind and generous. The ones on this board have been exceptionally helpful.
I’m not financially wealthy, but I’ll tell you what–since I started directing my prayer towards a woman, the good stuff has been rolling my way. I don’t ask Her to give me stuff–I ask Her to help me find it myself.
Could I do it without her? Maybe. I could be totally wrong. There’s always the possibility that the Krishnas are right. But hey, it’s working for me.
And Kricket? There’s a full moon coming. I want to do a home protection thingy. Email me!
Blessed be!
I would like to post to this tonight, but I’m a little high on antihistamines and decongestants… Not being ussed to taking anything, my system doesn’t handle it well. I’ll post more when I’m coherent. K?
Thanks everybody for making me feel welcome! It’s nice to know that being new at this isn’t an invitation for hazing.
I felt the need to post the following reminder, why? Who knows, perhaps just a need to toss my 2 cents in.
I’m pretty sure most of the people posting to this thread already know this, BUT just in case…
Not all pagans are Wiccans. Not all pagans are witches. Not all pagans use either of these words to describe themselves. OK, that’s done.
And I’d agree with someone earlier, that asking why all witches aren’t rich is pretty similar to asking why all christians aren’t, if prayer really works. Regardless of your religion and its validity, some folks got the money, some don’t. However, it does seem that regardless of religion again, those who are happy with what they are doing, and those who are following a spiritual path (or lack of one) that truly fills a need within themselves, are the ones who most often seem to have it “together”, including the monetary stuff. (Notice the broad generalizations scattered throughout the previous paragraph; please take the statements for what they are, and not as a challenge to list every exception you’ve ever encountered. 
)
Since I am new to the board, I’ll share just for information’s sake that I am a Celtic Pagan, I have never been Wiccan, and do not call myself a witch (never have). For those unclear of the distinctions, feel free to email me and we can discuss!
Brea wrote:
What I’m wondering is whether this term is one you’ve adopted or one that is recognized and commonly used among pagani and the like.
I never bash anyone’s religion – not since high school – though I do make fun of them. I’m what you might call a Secular Humorist. In a previous thread I mentioned that it seemed to me that pagani didn’t have a very good sense of humor about themselves and their beliefs, and a few people contradicted me. But no one ever admits to not having a sense of humor.
One of the axes brought to grind on self-styled “witches” is how some of them, you obviously not being among them, get very self-righteous about the fact that other people don’t accept their definition of witch. Many modern pagans, who have no historical connection to any actual pagan tradition call themselves witches in spite of the fact that the term `witch’ does not mean pagan, nor are all pagans witches, and will get angry if someone makes a disparaging remarks about witches.
The problem is that they took on a term which did not belong to them and which had negative connotations when they took it. They want their definition to be accepted universally and retroactively. That isn’t going to happen. But I have a few ideas about terminology myself which clears up some of the confusion about various new age types:
Pagan – let us adopt this as a generic term for polytheists, and maybe use it loosly when needed to cover animists.
Witch – let us not use this term as synonymous with `pagan’ or even in the more specific sense of a worshiper of Hecate. Instead it should refer to the same sorts of spell-casters, not necessarily from any particular religious tradition, who are generally understood to be witches: hags, conjure-doctors, hoodoo ladies, Gypsy fortune-tellers, etc. But only those spell-casters who are willing to invoke evil spirits should count.
Magick – we should distinguish magick with a k' from other forms of conjuring. Magic with a k’ is vegetarian yuppie ecofeminist magic. It is clean and innocent, does not involve the invocation of evil spirits, and takes as its paraphrenelia clean and nifty things like crystals, candles and herbs. Magick with a k' users never harm animals, or use viscera or fecal matter of any kind in their spells. The goals of such spells tend to be abstract positive ones that would not be measurable in any way even if they succeeded, such as realign the spirit’ or `purge negativity.’
Voodoo – Voodoo is an organized religion that marries Catholocism with Haitian spirit worship. The voodoun have a church with its own heirarchy.
Hoodoo – Hoodoo is a primarily southern, primarily black tradition of conjuring and fetish production that combines superstitions from many sources, including but not limited to Voodoo, european fetishism, African spirit worship, Gypsy lore and whatever else comes along. Hoodoo practice is largely metaphorical and holistic (like follows like and parts stand for the whole) and may involve such elements as animal sacrifice (usually chickens), the invocation of good or bad spirits, dirt from a child’s grave and parts from dead creatures including humans. Hoodoun are not members of a priesthood or a coven, but learn their craft through apprenticeship, or by natural talent (as evidenced by a sign' such as having an evil eye’ or otherwise being frightening to look at). Its spells are intended to do pragmatic things, such as make an enemy leave town, or cause a person’s rhumatism to act up.
Crystal-waver – A person who uses crystals to align the flow of some form of energy unknown to rational science. However, it will be acceptable to use this term as a generic label for new-agers and other quacks.
Herbalist – A user of herbs and other things that grow for a variety of benefits, some of which are practical (though their effectiveness is often questionable) and others are magick. This is not to be confused with a Root Doctor, who is a type of Hoodoun. Also, a useful synonym for pot smokers. (Note: enunciating the `h’ can irritate people. Have fun.)
Wiccan – Let’s also avoid using the term `witch’ for wiccans, even though many of them would prefer to be called witches. We should reserve the term for people who actually kill chickens during spells.
Hecate-nik – a more informative term for worshipers of Hecate.
Anyees – People who argue that the Principle of Harm, stated in the modern archaic “An ye harm none, do what ye will” is a sufficient moral principle, and often cite it as specifically superior to the moral teachings of Christianity which are too complex to fit on a bumper sticker (which is not to say no one has tried). The Anyees do not acknowledge the Principle of Harm’s red headed stepsisters, the Principles of Benevolence, Paternalism, Honesty, Lawfulness, Autonomy, Justice, or its hillbilly cousins, the Acknowledgements of Personal Benefit, Social Benefit and Rights.
Warrior Womyn – The warrior womyn movement is not about war, it’s about comunion with the spirits of brave women. Don’t let the use of this term mislead you to believe that a self-described `warrior womyn’ would actually go to war if called upon to do so. Some might, but that’s not the point. The point is that every woman can take credit for another woman’s bravery. I think it’s belittling to actual warrior women that women who cannot and do not actually kick ass will call themselves warrior women, and so I would reserve the term for women who can at least swing a broadsword.
SCAbies – the Society for Creative Anachronism should not be confused with other cultish movements. It is a secular organization, although it appeals to the same kinds of people who get involved in paganism, Wicca and the like. The membership is quite eccentric, and it’s truly a marvelous institution for those who weren’t ever all that enchanted with reality to begin with. SCA blends the sublime and the ridiculous so smoothly that many of its members seem to have forgotten which is which. Mostly harmless.
Gamers – This refers specifically to players of role-playing games, and other related games. Although many gamers are involved in SCA activities, and have interests that mesh with those of pagans, they can be sharply distinguished from either group by their compulsive aquisition of dice.
LARPers – Players of Live Action Role Playing games. They run around in the streets pretending to be other people, unlike most gamers who confine such activity to card tables in their dormrooms. Mostly harmless, but see LAVers, below.
LAVers – Players of Live Action Vampire. It’s the most active branch of Live Action Role-Playing, and the one most likely to worry the squares, because of the sexy and creepy way the players like to dress. Based on White Wolf’s game Vampire, which itself is mostly based on Anne Rice’s vampire novels, the game is very popular with Goths. It also has a much higher following among women than any other role-playing game.
Goths – Goth should not be taken as a religious movement even though religious issues are at the heart of it. It’s a subculture based on the following principles: death is a metaphor for sex, sex is a metaphor for death, and vampires are sharp dressers. They are mostly harmless young kids who go out of their way to freak people out so that they can complain about being treated like freaks. Under no circumstances should you allow a Goth to read poetry to you.
Whindians – Whites who claim Native American ancestry. Obviously, a lot of whites do in fact have Native American ancestors, and not all of them will have inherited clearly Indian features. It’s therefore difficult to tell whether such a claim is genuine, and it’s not clear what it would mean if it were. Whites have a lot of collective guilt these days about things done to non-whites by other whites. Indian heritage justifies claims to higher spirituality, a stronger kinship with nature, and the moral trump card of `victim status’ – all while still being generally accepted as a white person in white society.
Anyway, those are some of the ideas I have toward a codified standard nomenclature of pagans, witches and related groups. I’m sure Wiccans will see how sensible my definitions are and correct their own misguided lexicon.
SCAbies – the Society for Creative Anachronism
Scabies?!
That’s “Silly Costume Association” to you, Mr. Angel
Apollyon. (Shire of Ildhafn, Southron Caid).
PS: Love the definitions. LOL.
Sigh Johnny, you can define those words however you want. Whether you can get anyone to actually use them in those ways is another question.
Johny: I am going to assume you said that all tongue-in-cheek, if so, pretty funny. However, SCABies? better watch it, bub, you’re talking to a Baron, you know.
Brea, I think I love you! You said everything I was trying to say only in more detail.
Master David B sticking up for us? I know I usually don’t show up for debates but isn’t that a bit unusual? I know if it is not I will be told so in no uncertain terms.
Persephone I will email you with a few suggestions tomorrow.
Dan, I used the word Pentacle not pentagram. See how easily things get confused? I like Brea, don’t like the latter because of the stigmata it carries.
We have a great bunch of Pagans here. I am suprised that more haven’t shown up.
Nothing much more for me to say that hasn’t already been said, so I will wait and watch for a while.
BTW Beth, am I on your mailing list? 
You know it!
Daniel: Try here and look under Historical Background.
beth: not exactly an anthropological site, but I will accept it, unless I find something better. Thanks, even tho it disagrees with my point. It does show a limited asia minor use pre-Christian period. None of my sources listed any such Pentagrams, but they are heavily wieghed towards Northern Europe.
Please note, I am not attacking pagans/wiccan etc, I am sincerely trying to be helpful. Whether or not the pentagram had some minor use, pre-“witchcraft”, and whether or not the word “witch” was sometimes used in the 16th century to refer to someone not actually a Satanist, is besides the point. Both the Pentagram & “witch” are loaded with negative connotations, and are used by a group that argueably has a better claim, ie. the Satanists. There are better words and better symbols. Even tho I know the swastika/fylflot has non evil uses that WAY predate nazism, I would not recommend that either. The equal armed cross/circle is an ancient Celtic symbol, but the Celtic Christian Church adoped it for their own, in the 6th century. Again, not the best symbol for pagans.