If witchcraft works ...

Daniel, while I can see where you are coming from I have to disagree somewhat. True, the word “witch” and the symbol of the pentagram have negative connotations to some people but so do crosses and white pillowcases to some other people.

The purpose of the SDMB is to fight ignorance, not to kowtow to it. If someone is offended enough by my pentagram to say something to me about it, I take that as a great opportunity to attempt to open his/her mind a little.

Words and symbols can change meanings only if everyone is educated as to what the “new” meaning is. People fear and hate what they do not understand. If we do nothing to further their understanding, we cannot complain when they fear and hate us.

As has been mentioned previously, Wicca is a fairly new religion. As a new religion, it may very well borrow from many different sources. Some of the borrowed phrases/practices/symbols may be religious and some may be secular. However, how they are used in the new religion is essentially up to the founders and the practitioners of said religion.

If I wear a buttrfly pendant on my shirt and I tell people it symbolizes to me the spiritual rebirth I have recent undergone, then it does. Symbols mean what the user wants them to mean. Yes, people may get the wrong idea/impression of said symbol but that is why it is the responsibility of the wearer/practitioner to spread the word. Will that in and of itself make the symbol/practice universally accepted? No. But then, who said everyone else always has to agree with what individuals are doing (so long as they “harm none!”)

Kricket said:

I’m not sticking up for any person, but rather for the facts. So don’t let it go to your head! :wink:

Daniel,

I knew if I wanted to kill some time I could find something. Since I never get the UBB codes rights, it will be a cut an paste thing:
http://www.ames.net/aeon/Rock_Art/rock_art.html

“While it is beyond the scope of the present article to investigate the significance of the various star-forms associated with Venus, suffice it to say here that Inanna/Ishtar could also be signified by a five-pointed star.51 Indeed, the five-pointed star as a symbol of Venus is well attested throughout the ancient world. Upon Babylonian kudurru, moreover, the Venusian pentagram can be found superimposed upon the disc of Shamash (Figure 12).52”

Complete with sketches of various rock carvings. If I get a chance, I’ll try to find some photos of pottery from the Mesopotamia era which is supposed to be one of the first records of the pentagram used in worship.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
gkj

The proper term is “SCAdian,” you cur. And we’re not freaks, but we do dress funny. :smiley:

Esprix, known in the Society as Joshua the Imperfekt, AoA, Den Mother of Clan Blue Feather, residing in the Barony of Bhakail, East Kingdom

Apollyon wrote:

Right, that’s going in the lexicon.

matt_mcl wrote:

Suddenly, half a light bulb appears over matt_mcl’s head.

Oh yeah? What are you going to do, defeoff me?

If you could get beat up for making fun of SCAbies, I would be in traction, as I’ve quite recently attended two SCA themed weddings. They are gentle people, mostly, who just happen to carry weapons.

Esprix wrote:

For the record, I never called you freaks to your faces.

Very funny. The point is that when we use the word witch among ourselves, it has no satanic connotation. As Brea has been at pains to observe, she never uses the word witch when she is with people it might confuse.

“Who just happen to carry weapons” is the important part of that sentence. What’s worse, it’s not even live steel, which would be a nice, quick, clean death - it’s rattan. They have to beat you to death with it! :smiley:

Esprix

matt_mcl wrote:

No one’s denying that. I have no issue with the insider language of Wiccans. The issue I’m talking about is the how self-styled witches will proselytize outsiders for not using the word `witch’ in the way they want it to be used.

I have already acknowledged that Brea is not guilty of the self-righteousness to which I reffered.

Rattan?! Heck if I’m signing up, then. If I can’t carry a gladius what’s the point? Rattan… ::pfft::

I’m feeling much better now… so…

I admit, I should’ve thought before saying unequivocably “Yes, I’m a Witch”. I was wrong to make the statement in that it would be taken in the wrong context. I should’ve said, “Yes, I’m a Wiccan,” but this would’ve been taken out of context as well. When you’re part of something that’s as misunderstood and as widely interpreted as Paganism, it’s easy to mix your definitions. This being said, let’s move on, shall we?

Matt_mcl, thank you for reminding me about the other definitions and uses for the pentagram/pentacle. I had forgotten those as I don’t use those specific ones.

Kricket, Thanks! I have been trying to define my concepts for myself as well, so this was a good chance to firm them up and put them down.

Johnny Angel, Yes, “Eclectic” is used by a lot of Pagans/Wiccans- especially Solitaries. This is because when you live in an area where there are either no covens/circles, or if you choose to follow the Goddess Path on your own, you by necessity must be somewhat Eclectic. If you’re learning about the Craft on your own, it’s not easy to choose just one branch of this diverse belief system. BTW, I have a very funny “definition” joke about the different sects of Pagans. I’ll send it to you via e-mail if you want. Also, The so-called “Witches” who get ticked because you don’t define it correctly in their minds? They’re like the so-called “Christians” who preach love and then call complete strangers names because they’re looking for a reaction. Fundies of all faiths, hunh?

Daniel, I am in the process of reading a very good book about the history of Paganism right now. It includes Witchcraft, Druids, Wiccans, etc in it’s descriptions. It’s called “Drawing Down The Moon” by Margot Adler, and it is very fair in it’s endeavor to teach others about this oft-maligned faith- it’s history, it’s present, and it’s hopeful future.

To be honest, I’m not sure if anyone used the actual term “Witch” before the Malleus Maleficarum era. Most people simply lived by this religion, they didn’t worry about giving it a name. I can’t be sure, as the historical accounts from that time are mostly written by people who were conviced that all Pagans were devil-worshippers. Plus, I wasn’t there, so I can’t say what I did not see or hear for myself.

All faiths go through changes, they all evolve. Sometimes it’s good, as we all need to grow as spiritual beings in some sense. Sometimes it’s bad, as in the various faiths out there that are belittling and demeaning the original teachings. I don’t believe that the Christian faith is the same as when the Bible was written. It is better in some ways, as it now contains elements that apply to Today- i.e. by condemning spousal abuse when it happens. It is worse in some ways, as many people see it as their right to judge others when it states quite clearly in the Bible that “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” The various Pagan faiths are no different. They have changed many times since the “Old Days”. They will continue to change long after we’re gone. For now, I use what works for me, and the rest goes out the window.

[QUOTE]
** brea said:
I’m feeling much better now… so…

BTW, I have a very funny “definition” joke about the different sects of Pagans. I’ll send it to you via e-mail if you want.
Daniel, I am in the process of reading a very good book about the history of Paganism right now. It includes Witchcraft, Druids, Wiccans, etc in it’s descriptions. It’s called “Drawing Down The Moon” by Margot Adler, and it is very fair in it’s endeavor to teach others about this oft-maligned faith- it’s history, it’s present, and it’s hopeful future.

To be honest, I’m not sure if anyone used the actual term “Witch” before the Malleus Maleficarum era. Most people simply lived by this religion, they didn’t worry about giving it a name.“end quote”

Go ahead & post the joke, you will offend sombody, fersur, but you probably already have. :smiley: I have read “Drawing …” and it was not bad, well witten for sure, but not “historical” enuf for me to keep a copy in my library. Just to show you how “unbiased” I am, I also have a copy of the Malleus Maleficarum*. There is almost no records of what happened to Paganism in Western Europe during the Medieval & Ren. periods. Some think it went underground, some believe it was stomped out, and others that it was perverted into Satanism. I think it was a little of all three.

  • I promise not to quote lengthy passages, don’t want anyone bursting into flames, now, do we? :smiley:

Brea wrote:

That’s suggestive of an unstated group dynamic. Who are the Solitaries, and why do they especially use the term?

The Christians have something similar called non-denominational. Ironically, the claims to neutrality on matters of doctrine have made non-denominational a loaded term. The Christians also have a term for a preacher who is not ordained by any church – jackleg.

You’re welcome to send it, but if you don’t post it here, there’s no guarantee I won’t take credit for it somewhere down the line. =)

Every movement has got to attract all kinds, especially assholes. Early Christianity gained great strength by appealing to the desire many people have for persecution complexes, and to find excuses for assholish behavior. Yet, that is certainly not what Christianity is about. The assholes in any group are a powerful resource. Organizations like PETA run almost entirely on Asshole Power. You wind them up with idealogy, and send them out to clear a path of scorched earth that the moderates can later till and cultivate.

As far as Fundies go, there are of course different degrees of fundamentalism. I usually use three:

Fundies – Those who take their preacher’s word for what the bible says, and live their lives by it to the best of their understanding.
Wonder Fundies – Those who read the bible as the revealed word of God, and try to get you to live by it as they understand it.
Thunder Fundies – Those who read the King James Bible as the revealed word of a literal-minded God, and fantasize, often out loud, about the horrible wrath you will suffer for not living by it as they proclaim it to be and the smug satisfaction they will feel in the Sweet By-And-By thinking about your heathen ass flailing in the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

Of course, even outside the realm of fundamentalism there are gradations:

Chrispy – Firm believers in the Christian religion.
Extra Chrispy – Enthusiastic believers in the Christian religion, who do volunteer work in the Christian community.
Extra Tasty Chrispy – People who just cannot quite get over how much they love Jesus, and how much Jesus loves them. They are compulsive Christians, who in one sense really can’t be blamed for the way they bring Jesus into every conversation, because they often don’t even know they’re doing it. Also known as Christ-a-Holics.

Now, Extra Chrispies can sometimes be identified by their use of the Pod People Face, which is one trick they use to identify eachother. You have probably seen the look I’m talking about, and experienced the unsettling impression that the Chrispies were communicating telepathically. As of the time of this writing, I have not been able to determine whether this is the case, but I have designed an experiment that involves seperating two Chrispies by a screen of tinfoil.

Near as I can tell, Pagans in general don’t have a Pod People Face of their own, though there are certain cults that do. They have much cruder ways of identifying themselves to eachother, usually with unsubtle shibboleths like “widdershins.” Yet, remarkably they pass easily under the radar of most of your straight-john citizens – which is actually quite frustrating for some pagani eager to gather tales of persecution to pass along at herbal tea parties. A wag who comes to recognize these key words and phrases can have endless fun messing with a pagan’s mind. It’s far easier than learning to fake a Pod People Face. Believe me, I’ve tried.

Anyway, what was I on about?

gaudere: hell yes, you can carry that gladius, you have my explicit permission (but you don’t need it :smiley: ). Carry all the Live Steel you want, I’ve got a WWI trenchmace as my symbol of Office, a damascus viking sword, and enuf other damascus steel to stock a well supplied cutlery store. We just have very strict rules about ever drawing & using that live steel. I extend a warm & heartfelt invitation for you to visit & try an event.

gkj: welcome to the SDMB, and nice post! :cool: But the “pentagrams” they show, and are talking about are stars, not the traditional pentagram with crossed lines inside. Sure, many of the various “star”/planet deities have had “stars” as their symbols. Note they they expressly say the more usual symbol for Ishtar is an eight pointed star, in any case. There is a big diff between a “star” symbol for a Goddess who has a heavenly body as her symbol/home, and a pentagram as a symbol of protection/summoning. But still a cool site I learned some stuff from, and rather scientific.

A solitary or solitaire is a Wiccan who practices by himself or herself, rather than in a group or coven.

Thank you everyone for the warm welcomes. It is always fun starting posting to a new BB.

As far as the crossed lines in a pentagram…that I would guess is a more modern trait. The concept of a star in a circle is the important bit as it is the points of the star that are representative of the elements and the spirits. I would (and this is pure speculation on my part) assume that the lines are used to represent actually drawing the figure and it also makes for nice jewelry.

“They have much cruder ways of identifying themselves to eachother, usually with unsubtle shibboleths like “widdershins.” Yet, remarkably they pass easily under the radar of most of your straight-john citizens – which is actually quite frustrating for some pagani eager to gather tales of persecution to pass along at herbal tea parties”
Hahahahha I suppose the cauldron, feathers, white sage, and crystals on my desk at work would fall under the “unsubtle” category.

Completely off topic other than the comment on persecution, I just read a fascinating article about how “everything you thought you knew about the burning times is wrong.” Essentially, most information out there is pulled from secondary and beyond texts. Actual analysis of court records shows a much smaller number and much less based out of the Catholic Church. While I personally hate being wrong, I do so like counter viewpoints.

Cheers,
gkj

Wicca is not about material gain. We can not cast a spell to turn you into a toad or create money out of nothing. As Kricket said ritual is like a prayer. It is directing your energy towards a goal and asking for guidience from the Gods and Goddesses. If I met a wiccan promising me wealth, fame or anyting like that I would run away, FAST!! If you met the Budda in the road, shoot him!! Wicca is about love, compassion, caring for life and nature, respecting all. The one main rule is “do as ye will an it harm none”. This is about love, not materials. Many people do not understand the details of Wicca or Paganism and think we worship the devil (NO!) are evil (NO!) or whatever. Just like anything their will be Wicca who are those things, but they are rare and far apart and do not represent the religion or the majority of Wiccca.

esprix/Joshua: as we are both in the SCA, and thus are “gentlemen” (I do assume you have an AoA, at least) by Royal decree, I suggest a truce. If I have offended you, I apologize. No more “flames”. Of, course, we WILL sometimes disagree, but that is different. Yours in Service, Baron “W”.

And folks, there are quite a few pagans/wiccans IN the SCA, but the SCA is studiously non-religous.

Nika said:

Well then forget it! I ain’t joining!

Jeez, leave it to Wiccans to take all the fun out of witchcraft…

You can do those kinds of spells if you want. Just remember that you reap what you sow.

singing Karma karma karma karma karma chame-le-on…

I didn’t write this, I got it in an e-mail, so I have no idea where it originally came from…

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Alexandrian/Gardnerian:
To reveal this would be to break my oath of secrecy. I can say, though,
that it really is an ancient rite, dating far back in time, back even
before 1951, and I have learned it from an unbroken lineage. As Gerald
said, it takes a chicken to make an egg.

Asatru:
First, we don’t believe in a “One Chicken” or a “Hen and Rooster.” We
believe in many chickens. Second, “crossing the road” is part of the three
levels, or worlds, and the chicken simply crossed from one level to
another. Hail to the Chickens!

British Traditional:
The word “chicken” comes from a very specific Old English word
(“gechekken”), and it only properly applies to certain fowl of East Anglia
or those descended therefrom. As for the rest, I suppose they are doing
something remotely similar to crossing the road, but you must remember that
traditional roads are not to be confused with the modern roads…

Celtic:
In County Feedbeygohn on Midsummer’s day, there is still practiced St.
Henny’s Dance, which is a survival of the old pagan Chicken Crossing
fertility rite. Today, modern pagans are reviving the practice, dedicated
to the Hen and the Green Rooster.

Ceremonial:
“Crossing the road” is a phrase that summarizes many magical structures
erected and timed by the chicken to produce the energy necessary for the
intention of the travelacross the road. For example, the astrological
correspondences had to be correct, the moon had to be waxing (if the
chicken intended to come to the other side of the road) or waning (if the
chicken intended to flee to the other side of the road), and the chicken
had toprepare herself through fasting and proper incantations. Note:
certain forms of invocation (summoning an egg inside your chicken self)
can produce abnormal or even dangerous eggs and should only be conducted
inside a properly erected barnyard. …

Chaos:
Thinking in terms of “roads” and “crossings” is simply looking at the
formal, typically perceived structure of chicken crossing space-time. We,
instead, focus on the possibility of chicken crossing itself; what appears
to be a random act is thus actually the norm - it is the road which is
the freak of chance. Indeed, quantum mechanics now demonstrates what we
knew all along: two roads can simultaneously exist in the same place at the
same time. Thus, by attuning ourselves to the dynamic energy (called
“crossing”), we can manifest the road. Of course, to the unknowledgeable,
this appears as a chicken crossing the road.

Dianic:
The chykyn (“chicken” is a term of patriarchal oppression) sought to
reclaim for herself the right to be on the other side of the road, after it
had been denied to her for centuries. By doing so, she reawakened the power
of the Hen within herself.

Discordian:
cock-a-doodle-doo !

Druid:
To get to the sacred grove, of course! Keep in mind that 99% of everything
written about chickens-crossing-the-road is pure hogwash, based on biased
sources. Yes, there were a few unfortunate chicken sacrifices in the past,
but that is over now…

Eclectic:
Because it seemed right to her at the time. She used some Egyptian style
corn and a Celtic sounding word for the road and incorporated some Native
American elements into her Corn-name,
Chicken-Who-Dances-and-Runs-with-the-Wolves.
(…I Loved that one… ha ha)

Faery:
In twilight times and under sparkling stars, those properly trained can
still see the chickens crossing the roads. Reconnecting with these
“fey-fowl” as they cross is crucial to restoring the balance between the
energies of modern development and living with the earth.

Family Traditional:
Growing up, we didn’t think much about “crossing the road.” A chicken was a
chicken. It crossed the road because that was what worked to get her to the
other side. We focused on what worked, and we worked more with the elders
of the barnyard and less with all this “guardians of the chickencoop”
business. We didn’t get our concepts of “chickens” or “the other side” from
Gardner, either. You can choose not to believe us since we did not “scratch
down” on paper what was clucked to us orally (which, at certain times in
history, was the only way to avoid becoming Easter chicken soup!), but that
doesn’t change the facts: there were real chickens, and they really
did
cross the road!

Kitchen Witch:
The chicken crossed the road to get food, to get a rooster or to get away
from me after I decided to have chicken for supper!

Left Hand Path:
White, fluffy chickens prancing across the road! Do you think that is all
there is to crossing the road? Do you dare to know the dark side of
crossing the road and the other path to self-development?

New Age:
The chicken crossed the road because she chose this as one of her lessons
to learn in this life. Besides, there was so much incense and bright, white
corn to explore on the Other Side.

Newbie:
well, 'cause I read in this really kewl book that said, like, chickens are
supposed to cross the road, right?

Posting on an Online Discussion Group:
What do you mean <<why did the chicken cross the road?>> ???!!!??? Haven’t
you read any of the previous posts? We’ve been [expletive deleted]
debating every word of that question, painstakingly trying to come to some
kind of answer. I know you wrote <<all i wanted to know was why chickens
cross the road, im not looking for any chicken spells>> but I’m fed up with
newbies who can’t even bother to REEEEEEEEAAADDD the posts on that very
topic! No, this is not a flame. But, I and several others here have the
maturity to properly explore and respond to this question, and we were
properly trained; we didn’t just read a book and think we were
full-fledged chickens. <whew, feeling much better after ranting>
(… Newbies… Not to worry, you will never get a response
like that in this community… {Hug} Deeda)

Solitaire:
The chicken didn’t want to be part of a coven or an oven.

Shaman:
Crossing the road is a way to reconnect with the healing, visionary
lifeways of the past. Chickens have long known this, but increasingly the
Rooster’s Movement is adding more roosters to the crossings too.

Snert: (? ? What’s a “snert” ? ? )
Hey, are you guys really chickens? Can you give me a spell that will make a
chicken cross the road?

Wiccan:
The chicken crossed the road because she felt like she was finally “coming
home.” She could do it alone or with others, but she had to call to the
Guardians of the Watchtowers of the Barnyard first …