If you oppose the corrupt bigotry of Arab tyrants, why support their positions?

[ethic]

Agreed Sam Stone. Palestine is in a sorry state. Perhaps it is legitimate to criticize the cultural transformation brought on by occupation and corrupt rule. But one must be blind to not see how December is attributing the inferiority of Palestine in part to its “Arabness”.

He has previously used “homophobia” to demonstrate the inferiority of Arabic culture:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2162290&highlight=gays#post2162290
He has never been in an Arabic country. He is (and I only assume this since he has a wife) not homosexual. His assumptions about how Arabic culture views homosexuality is based on stereotypes and out of context bits and pieces he finds here and there. Given how intent he is on painting the picture of the “homophobic Arab” although his knowledge about the issue is as thin as a paper sliver, I can only assume an ulterior racist motive. Accusing me of Godwinism in this case is unwarranted. This is not a rhetorical or inflammatory device. December needs to be exposed for what he is. My feeling is that someone needs to call the kettle black. Should I tip-toe around the issue? December is not a reasonable critic of the Arabic world.

How would you react if someone in this forum started saying things like “Jews suffer from endemic avarice” and then went on “proving” it by quoting cases of corporate greed that involved Jewish people? And then despite numerous posts with facts to the contrary still kept insisting, slipping in remarks about “Jewish greed”…

[december]

ethic, you got me. When it’s a government’s policy to torture gay people, I will call them “homophobic.” If that makes me a bigot, I confess.

In that case, I’m bigoted against other cultures, too. I would call the Ku Klux Klan “racist” and the Nazis “antisemitic.” I’m a bigot three times over!

I am aware that according to the standards of post-modern morality, the lynchers, the gas-oven operators, and the gay-torturers are not immoral. They do have different cultures from ours, but all cultures are equally valid.

I know I ought not look down on them, but I can’t help myself. I just haven’t been able to attain ethic’s high level of ethics. :smack:

[Sparc]

december

When it’s a government’s policy to torture gay people, I will call them “homophobic.” If that makes me a bigot, I confess.

In that case, I’m bigoted against other cultures, too. I would call the Ku Klux Klan “racist” and the Nazis “antisemitic.” I’m a bigot three times over!

Don’t even try.

Item first:

You have not furnished any cite that shows a consistent government policy of any sort in this direction. This has been addressed by others so I’ll leave it.

Item second:

december, title of previous post

Palestinian homophobia

Post in page 2 of this thread

Most Americans favor israel, because unlike the Palestinians, they share our values, such as
[…]Sexual preference is not a crime

Beyond that you have previously stated that ‘Muslims routinely kill homosexuals’. You try to pretend that you have only attacked the PA in this respect, which is simply not the truth.

Item third:

The Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis are not confoundable with any ethnic group. There is no misunderstanding that when you say the Ku Klux Klan you do not thereby imply Americans in the southern states. Just the fact that you in the above quote refer to these despicable groups as ‘cultures’ in this context infers some pretty hateful sentiments towards other groups that you also refer to as ‘cultures’ in this thread.

Try again december, or better yet just stop brushing up against the borderlines of hate mongering.

Sparc

[december]

*Originally posted by Sparc *You have not furnished any cite that shows a consistent government policy of any sort in this direction.

I emphasized consistent because it’s a “weasel word.” I furnished a dramatic cite about a gay man, who had the misfortune to live under the Palestinian Authority. Instead of acknowledging the horror I know you feel about his mistreatment, you tried to avoid taking a stand by adding an additional requirement: consistency.

BTW my cite actually did indicate a pattern of mistreatment:

Tayseer was told that his sex partner was in fact a police agent whose job is to ferret out homosexuals. If Tayseer wanted to avoid prison, he too would have to become an undercover sex agent, luring gays into orchards and turning them over to the police.

Tayseer wasn’t the only one. There was a police policy to ferret out homosexuals. Presumably others got similar treatment.

Sparc, if you believe that my example is extraordinary and that my cite was an exception, please say so. And, please supply cites. Otherwise, I wish you’d stop calling me names when I post some unpalatable fact. Name-calling gets in the way of useful debate.

The Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis are not confoundable with any ethnic group.

You’re interested in ethnic groups; I’m not. I also doubt that Tayseer cared about the ethnicity of his torturers. I am interested in *cultures. *

The Palestinians, the racist South of 100 years ago and the Nazis all represent specific cultures. Fortunately the culture in the American South and in Germany has changed.

[december]

*Originally posted by Sparc *You have not furnished any cite that shows a consistent government policy of any sort in this direction.

I emphasized consistent because it’s a “weasel word.” I furnished a dramatic cite about a gay man, who had the misfortune to live under the Palestinian Authority. Instead of acknowledging the horror I know you feel about his mistreatment, you tried to avoid taking a stand by adding an additional requirement: consistency.

BTW my cite actually did indicate a pattern of mistreatment:

Tayseer was told that his sex partner was in fact a police agent whose job is to ferret out homosexuals. If Tayseer wanted to avoid prison, he too would have to become an undercover sex agent, luring gays into orchards and turning them over to the police.

Tayseer wasn’t the only one. There was a police policy to ferret out homosexuals. Presumably others got similar treatment.

Sparc, if you believe that my example is extraordinary and that my cite was an exception, please say so. And, please supply cites. Otherwise, I wish you’d stop calling me names when I post some unpalatable fact. Name-calling gets in the way of useful debate.

The Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis are not confoundable with any ethnic group.

You’re interested in ethnic groups; I’m not. I also doubt that Tayseer cared about the ethnicity of his torturers. I am interested in *cultures. *

The Palestinians, the racist South of 100 years ago and the Nazis all represent specific cultures. Fortunately the culture in the American South and in Germany has changed.

[CyberPundit]

zigaretten,
I missed your post. Look if December had said that the Palestinians killed hundreds of “collaborators” improperly in the 80’s I wouldn’t have any problem with it. I invited him specifically to clarify the time-frame and he didn’t do so. Since , as I said, the context of this discussion is about recent events his statements seem to imply that Palestinians have recently killed “moderates” in the hundreds which is a fantastic assertion.

[Sparc]

I emphasized consistent because it’s a “weasel word.” I furnished a dramatic cite about a gay man, who had the misfortune to live under the Palestinian Authority.

No it’s not a ‘weasel’ word. It’s an attack towards ‘dramatic cites’ that don’t show patterns, statistics or consistency. I could give you ‘dramatic cites’ of homophobia by taking examples of abuse by police officer abuse of gay people in many countries worldwide. It proves only that there are assholes that abuse their position of authority, nothing less nothing more.

Sparc, if you believe that my example is extraordinary and that my cite was an exception, please say so. And, please supply cites. Otherwise, I wish you’d stop calling me names when I post some unpalatable fact. Name-calling gets in the way of useful debate.

I’ve lectured you in the past on the situation as re gay rights in the Middle Eastern Arabic cultures. Homophobia and abuse of gay rights is a problem in many countries, the gay rights movement disagrees with your uniform black painting, as do I. Refresh you memory with this post.

You’re interested in ethnic groups; I’m not. I also doubt that Tayseer cared about the ethnicity of his torturers. I am interested in cultures.

Ethnicity and culture are the same thing. Are we going to have to read about blabbering idiocies like eugenics in your next post?

The Palestinians, the racist South of 100 years ago and the Nazis all represent specific cultures. Fortunately the culture in the American South and in Germany has changed.

You’ve got cause and effect all backwards as usual. Eliminate the possibility of abuse and culture will stop supporting it, culture reinforces and reflects, but does not create. The Klan is not a culture; it is a racist political sect. The Nazis were not a culture; they were a political party. The NSDAP changed the legal possibility of abusing Human Rights, motivated people to do so as a ‘resolution’ to various imagined problems and culture violently changed in Germany after that. If there is a history of abuse, oppression and denigration it is usually easier to get such changes through, anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany strangely enough proves something different. I have recently expounded on this in a thread in GQ; ’ Is Germany largely anti-semetic today?’ - it touches briefly on the history of anti-Semitism before and under the NSDAP.

In fact saying that Nazism was inherently German is bigoted and it’s provably wrong. For instance; Nazism had just as much support in Bulgaria, Austria and Romania, and it gained wide support in many of the other occupied territories. Nazism takes advantage of some very dark sides of human nature not ‘German nature’ (whatever that would be).

Homophobia is also a sad part of humanity, it is widespread in the US for instance, and hence saying that it is inherently Palestinian is bigoted since it singles out one group of people and makes it look as if they are by nature more so than other groups of people.

Come again december. Wiggle and squirm as much as you want, but so far each new post you make reinforces the foundation of the accusation brought against you.

Sparc

[december]

Sparc, we actually agree on several aspects, although we come from different directons.

*Originally posted by Sparc *Refresh you memory with this post.

OK. You made some good arguments there. However you have not provided a cite contradicting Arab homophobia.

Ethnicity and culture are the same thing.

I’m using the meaning of culture as*“the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group”* Under this definition, culture can refer to a racial or religious group, which may be why you see it as identical to ethnicity. However, culture can also refer to any group of people. In this sense, one can refer to the culture of the antebellum South or of Germany in the late 1930’s.

Are we going to have to read about blabbering idiocies like eugenics in your next post?

Quite the reverse. Since culture is independent of ethinc group, it has nothing to do with genetics. Germans aren’t born antisemites, nor are Arabs born homophobes.

The Klan is not a culture; it is a racist political sect. The Nazis were not a culture; they were a political party.

This is true. For the purpose of the point I wanted to make, I assumed that these groups reflected the values of the cultures which they were a part of.

In fact saying that Nazism was inherently German is bigoted

I agree. Other countries have favored fascism, and Germans at other periods of time have opposed it.

…hence saying that it is inherently Palestinian is bigoted since it singles out one group of people and makes it look as if they are by nature more so than other groups of people.

I can see where that misunderstanding could arise, but I didn’t say it and I don’t believe it. Palesinians are homophobic by my standards today. There’s no inherent reason why that condition needs to persist.

CyberPundit
Look if December had said that the Palestinians killed hundreds of “collaborators” improperly in the 80’s I wouldn’t have any problem with it. I invited him specifically to clarify the time-frame and he didn’t do so. Since , as I said, the context of this discussion is about recent events his statements seem to imply that Palestinians have recently killed “moderates” in the hundreds which is a fantastic assertion.

CP suddenly added a new requirement: recently. First of all, I never said, “recently”.

Second, I question its relevance. Would you say, The Pinchochet regime murdered 3000 civilians, but that’s OK because they didn’t kill them recently.? I hope not.

Third, the killing of moderates is ongoing. It didn’t end at in the past. A few months ago, there was a dramatric TV broadcast showing the lynching of a group of Palestinians. As long as the Palestinians persist in killing those who take moderate stance, there cannot be leaders who truly favor peace.

Sparc, here’s a question. Your cite pointed to a specific post in a thread. How is that done?

[CyberPundit]

The question is not whether you specified “recently” but why you refused to specify the time frame after I specifically asked. It would, of course, have been easy for you to clarify that you were referring to the 80’s and that would have removed any possible misunderstanding. It seems you wanted to deliberately cultivate misunderstanding to further tarnish the current Palestinian regime. And of course the time frame matters, given that our discussion is mainly about the current intifada. No one is bringing up the numerous atrocities by the state of Israel over the last 50 years in this thread.

In any event you continue to repeat without proof your claim that the small number of Palestinians who are being killed now are “moderates”. That alone underlines the general gap between reality and and your arguments even after repeated challenge.

[Sparc]

december, before I start I’ll answer your vB Code question;

To link to a post add #post[postnumber] at the end of the URL string. The postnumber appears in the bottom left hand corner of your browser when you hold the cursor over the <quote> button in the post that you desire to link to. It should look like this: …showthread.php?s=&postid=2377840#post235678 for instance

Now over to the actual question at hand;

december

However you have not provided a cite contradicting Arab homophobia.

How could I? Arabs are humans. Humans are homophobic. Don’t ask me why, because all I come up with when I try to work that out makes my head reel. My point has never been that Arabic cultures aren’t homophobic. My point has been and is that you’re being a bigot for singling them out as homophobic when in fact they are just part of a larger global problem. Here is what the Human Rights Watch has to say about the rest of the world:

Human Rights Watch World Report 2002 - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Rights.

In virtually every country in the world people suffered from de jure and de facto discrimination based on their actual or perceived sexual orientation.

[Europe and the EU] Five of the thirteen countries that had applied for membership–Bulgaria, Cyprus, Estonia, Hungary, and Lithuania–maintained discriminatory provisions in their criminal laws, according to the European branch of the International Lesbian and Gay Association. In July, the Romanian government adopted a decree decriminalizing gay relationships between consenting adults, effectively nullifying a law that allowed sentences of up to five years imprisonment for homosexual relationships “occurring in public or which provoke a public scandal.”

In Namibia, President Samuel Nujoma continued to vilify gay men and lesbians, stating, “The Republic of Namibia does not allow homosexuality, lesbianism here. Police are ordered to arrest you, and deport you, and imprison you too.”

[India] On July 7, police raided the offices of the Bharosa Trust and the Naz Foundation International in Lucknow, organizations that worked on HIV/AIDS prevention, arresting several staff members. Although subsequently released on bail, the staff members were charged under article 377 of the Indian Penal Code, a provision that prohibited “carnal intercourse against the order of nature.”

[Argentina] Sacayan reported being tortured by the police and alleged that that she was arrested not for robbery but for refusing to pay a bribe to the local police. Stigmatization of transgender people made them particularly vulnerable to abuse by the authorities. Transvestites in Argentina were arrested under a law prohibiting the wearing of the clothes of the opposite sex, a prima facie violation of freedom of expression.

[Colombia] The government also argued that Latin American cultures did not tolerate homosexuality. [Argument made while grudgingly agreeing that conjugal visits to prison inmates by same sex partners must be legalized]
[USA] A report released in February by the Judicial Council of California, revealed that anti-gay bias was a major problem in the court system statewide in California.[…] Nearly a third of all court employees believed that it was unsafe for them to be openly identified as gay or lesbian in the workplace. This bias remained even though California was one of the United States’ most progressive states regarding lesbian and gay equality.
[USA] Seven years after the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy was codified as law and implemented, the United States military’s own surveys and investigations found that training on how to implement the law was deficient and that anti-gay harassment remained pervasive in the military.

The U.S. was increasingly out of step internationally in maintaining restrictions on homosexuals serving in the military.

Each day was a test of survival for many lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students in U.S. public schools.

I left out predominantly Muslim, Arabic and/or North African countries for effect. As regards them there are three or four incidents of imprisonment to add and the debacle in the UN when many of them joined up with some others to try bar a debate on HIV/AIDS prevention from a homosexual vantage point.

Since culture is independent of ethinc group, it has nothing to do with genetics.

Forget genetics all together. The fact is that ethnicity is practically only useful in a social definition (at least in this case that is certain). Ponder that Palestinians and Middle Eastern Jews belong to the same family lines if you only go back 2000 years or so.

Palesinians are homophobic by my standards today. There’s no inherent reason why that condition needs to persist.

That is my point, you’re being bigoted by saying this. First of all you have shown no proof of this. Second of all it is statistically improbable that Palestinians are more homophobic in reality than anyone else. Third of all as long as the rest of the world is as well, singling them out only serves to vilify them as a people. You will find that some Arabic countries together with India, some Eastern European nations, a few African nation, several Latin American countries and so on as shown above have antiquated and absurd buggery laws as well as some pretty old-fashioned views on sexuality in general. You will find that the US together with a large portion of the world plays with double standards, condemning discrimination on one end and tacitly supporting it on the other, and so on.

That’s your constant problem and the one that spawned this thread. You seem to believe that there is inherent badness to certain cultures; there isn’t - it’s the people that are nasty. Sharon and Bibi are little vermin Arafat is as well, none of that makes the Israelis or the Palestinians on general into the same. It’s not the culture that needs to change first.

Take away the assholes. Promote understanding and cooperation. Contain the violent idiots. Enforce human rights. Culture adapts positively.

Elect the assholes into government. Monger hatred and intolerance. Let loose the dogs of war. Abuse human rights. Culture adapts negatively.

Sparc

[ethic]

This is hopeless. You think I’m a moral relativist? To the contrary. If I did I would ‘excuse’ your anti-Arab bigotry and rationalize it away as a result of isolation from Arab communities and sensationalistic misinformation. I just happen to have a more intimate knowledge of the culture than you. Though I’m not of Arabic decent, I’ve studied the language and spent time in their communities. You have time and again leisurely grouped Arab, Palestinians and Muslims, criss-crossing the cultural boundaries at your whim to justify extremist Israeli sentiments.

At one time you defended the late Pim Fortyne’s anti-immigration sentiments as reasonable because Muslims were known to be homophobic. It’s like arguing what Christians are like based on what Southern Baptist churches have to say about homosexuality. You are obviously unaware of that Arab men are much more comfortable with showing intimacy in public. Though this is not equatable with homosexuality, it demonstrates a greater humanity than can be found in most Protestant based societies regarding how men relate to one another. Now you dig up a story to demonstrate homophobia in Palestine. Muslims, Palestinians, Arabs…

It’s deplorable what happened to that young man. But your argument is not that the PA needs to be reformed given its treatment of gay men. Your argument is that homophobia is endemic to Arab culture. You have waved that flag too many times. Actually I have little idea what your argument is. I think it’s that Israel has more existential legitimacy than Palestine because it abides to a higher set of morals. I have never been to Palestine. My experience of its culture is only from exiled Palestinians. What I have experienced there is a rather (extremely) well educated and mostly secularized group that does not abide to extremist fundamentalist values. But my experience may be skewed by the nature of exiled groups…

If you take the Quran as a basis for ethics in Arabic communities, their moral values do not differ much from other Semitic religions. However, its belief system is more consistent, stringently monotheistic and all-embracing. But I suppose you have never read the Quran. I have often said to my wife that were I practicing monotheist, I would choose an abrogated form of Islam. My reaction to your continuous onslaught against Palestinians, Muslims and Arabs is not due to a phony misplaced liberal relativism. It’s due to a higher understanding of the ethical nature of Islam and Arabic culture.
ETHIC

[december]

Sparc --thanks for the visual basic info. I’m still trying to figure it out. When I hold my cursor over the <quote> button, I do get a sting at the bottom, but it’s so long, I cannot see the right-hand end of it. The beginning looks like the thread address, http://boards.straightdope… etc, but I cannot see a post number. Maybe it’s too far to the right.

You wrote:

That’s your constant problem and the one that spawned this thread. You seem to believe that there is inherent badness to certain cultures; there isn’t - it’s the people that are nasty.

You have correctly characterized my belief. I agree that this is an essential part of our difference of opinion.

I cannot quite follow your distinction between people and culture. One could say, “The antebellum South had a racist culture.” or “The people in the antebellum South were mostly racists.” What’s the difference?

A Question of Magnitudes

You quoted HRW, “In virtually every country in the world people suffered from de jure and de facto discrimination based on their actual or perceived sexual orientation.” No doubt this statement is true, but there are big differences in the magnitude of the discrimination. The PA seeks to prevent homosexuality, and tortures gay men who refuse to cooperate. The US today permits homosexuality. Although there are cases of harassement against gays and cases of physical violence against them, in the US, it’s the attackers who are behaving illegally and who are punished.

Mr. Tayseer knows there’s a difference in magnitude. That’s why he prefers an underground existence in Israel to living under the P. A. Which brings me back to the OP.

Your HRC excerpt mentioned several countries, but not Israel. Israel is more enlightened than Arab cultures with respect to sexual orientation, and they are more enlightened in many other respects, which are important to you. But, they seen to get no credit for this.

[december]

*Originally posted by ethic *
This is hopeless.

Yes. These debates seldom change anyone’s mind. Still, I often find them educational.

You think I’m a moral relativist? To the contrary.

OK, I’ll take your word for it.

I just happen to have a more intimate knowledge of the culture than you. Though I’m not of Arabic decent, I’ve studied the language and spent time in their communities.

Yes, I acknowledge that you know far more than I do about this subject.

At one time you defended the late Pim Fortyne’s anti-immigration sentiments as reasonable because Muslims were known to be homophobic.

Right, this is what I’ve been led to believe.

Arab men are much more comfortable with showing intimacy in public. Though this is not equatable with homosexuality…

It sure isn’t.

. Actually I have little idea what your argument is. I think it’s that Israel has more existential legitimacy than Palestine because it abides to a higher set of morals.

Not exactly. My argument is that not only do some people have a double standard where Israel and Palestine are concerned, but that their pro-Palestinian tilt is all the more noteworthy because they agree with Israel and disagree with the Palestinians on a host of moral issues.

If you take the Quran as a basis for ethics in Arabic communities

I respect those who have expertise in the Koran, and I appreciate your insights. However, I measure ethics based on people’s actions, rather than words. The Christians who fought so viciously in the Crusades and the Christians who have done so much kindness and charity all read the same bible, but they had far different ethics.

were I practicing monotheist, I would choose an abrogated form of Islam.

OK. For me, the concept of being a practicing monotheist is inconceivable, so strong is my atheism.

Sparc – I have been able to follow your instructions by changing the setting of my internet connection to “show friendly urls.” Thanks for your help.

[december]

*Originally posted by CyberPundit *
The question is not whether you specified “recently” but why you refused to specify the time frame after I specifically asked.

Numerous Palestinians were killed, some were horribly tortured, and the killings have continued right up to this year. From yesterday’s New York Times Magazine

During the first Palestinian uprising, between the end of 1987 and the signing of the Oslo accord in 1993, about 1,000 Palestinians suspected of being collaborators were murdered by other Palestinians, according to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group. *That is nearly as many as the 1,000-plus Palestinians killed by Israeli forces in the same period. *

Bassem Eid estimates that fewer than half of the accused collaborators actually worked with Israel in any way. Even rumors could be fatal. Under the cover of charges of collaboration, clan vendettas and old accounts between criminal gangs were settled.* Killings were sometimes preceded by torture – ‘‘nails in the knees, molten plastic in the ears,’’ says Roy Politi, the former intelligence operative – and followed by mutilation.*
<snip>
In January 2001, following brief trials, two alleged collaborators were executed by firing squads in Gaza and Nablus. An international outcry led Yasir Arafat to withhold his approval for further executions. Instead, convicted collaborators were jailed, as were many others who were arrested but never tried. When Israel began its massive incursion into West Bank cities this spring, Palestinian vigilantes removed many of the suspected collaborators from prisons to prevent Israel from rescuing them. Between late March and the end of May, at least 26 accused collaborators were murdered. (emphasis added)

BTW I may have underestimated when I said the Palestinians had killed around 1000 of their citizens. According to this article, about 1000 were killed just in the period 1987 - 1993.