If you switched "Muslim" for "Jew," what would the public reaction be?

In this thread, Bricker raises some questions concerning a restaurant in NYC that may or may not have run afoul of some technical aspects of kosher certification:

The issue isn’t a big deal and to me is a tempest in a teapot, but something occurred to me…

… Suppose it had been a halal restaurant (inasmuch as that’s analagous) and an imam had come in from the certifying body and told the owners that men and women talking together and whatnot was against the rules, and the story had gotten out into the media.

What would the public reaction be?

I’m going to throw out a half assed guess and say that there’s a good chance people would have gone absolutely, thoroughly apeshit. Many would have misunderstood or misinterpreted the story and there would be the wailing and the rending of garments and the howling that the Moozlims are secretly imposing Sharia law on us all.

People don’t seem inclined to much care if Jews have these little tiffs, and I doubt they’d care if there was a Catholic or a Mormon equivalent, either, but I think they’d go bananas if it was Muslim.

Agree/disagree?

I had that same thought.

My instincts say that Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, and the other usual suspects would start hollering about the evil Muslims. I mean, we’re having a national debate about some Muslims building a community center in an old Burlington Coat Factory in lower Manhattan, and it’s being called ‘the Ground Zero mosque’. Right wing hate/fear mongers could hardly resist it.

I’d agree that some members of the media would consider whipping up public furor if it was a slow news day and, with a little nudge, about 27% of the electorate would go completely apeshit. About twenty to forty percent of the electorate would cluck their tongues, and ten percent would think it might be a good idea to set up a Christian organization that monitors restaurants’ moral atmosphere.

Is it wrong if I say, “their reaction will be what ever FNC tells them.”

From there I’d ask, what’s more profitable to FNC: rational evaluation of a situation, or overly dramatic hysteria?

Well, as long as the OP recognizes that “people” doesn’t mean all people, I don’t have an argument. Some people would freak, others would shrug.

As for my view, it’s a dickish thing for anybody to do, Jew or Muslim.

Unmarried people talking together is a “technical aspect of kosher certification”?

I agree that it would get more negative play in the media if it were a Halal place.

I think RickJay is looking at this situation in the wrong way. He’s acting as if New Yorkers are constantly looking for an excuse to condemn Muslims, and are now giving a free pass to bad behavior on the part of Jews. I don’t see things quite that simplisticallly.

IF this story has gotten relatively little attention, it’s because the restaurant in question caters mostly to Hassidic Jews, who have historically been the most clannish and self-isolated people in New York.

There are, undoubtedly, many restaurants in the Wiliamsburg and Crown Heights sections of Brooklyn that have all or nearly all Hasidic patrons. Gentile diners are so rare at such establishments that nobody ever complained about their dress or behavior codes. If anything, Gentiles who heard about their practices probably shrugged and said, “Well, it’s THEIR restaurant, and I was never planning to eat there anyway, so what do I care?”

The reaction would be EXACTLY the same if we were talking about a restaurant operated by and catering to Muslims. If such a Muslim-oriented restaurant required all female diners to wear a chador or head scarf, some Gentiles would scoff, but few would be offended. Most would say, again, “What do I care? I was never planning to go there in the first place.”

What makes Basil’s different is, they have apparently been reaching out to non-Hassidim and even to neighborhood Gentiles. If Basil’s management had continued to appeal exclusively to Hassidim, there would be no story here. But because they were making an effort to broaden their base, there are now significant numbers of Gentiles being affected by the kashrut-certifying body. Gentiles who wouldn’t have cared about Basil’s rules a few years ago are NOW upset. They’re now wondering, "Why did you reach out to us and invite us to dine here if you were going to turn around and change the rules on us???’

Basil’s is facing a dilemma that ANY business faces when it tries to broaden its appeal- how far can you go to accommodate new patrons WITHOUT alienating the original client base you’ve always relied on? Since Basil’s serves pizza, I’m assuming they’re a dairy-oriented kosher restaurant. If an Italian patron asked for pepperoni on his pizza, that would be a big no-no under the laws of kashrut (no mixing meats and cheese). Would the Italian have a right to feel offended, to say, “You’re unfairly forcing your religious rules on me?”

Similarly, if neighborhood Hassidim of a puritanical bent have always come to a certain restaurant in part because they knew they wouldn’t see people in revealing clothes, wouldn’t it be wise of management NOT to alienate those customers by allowing waitresses to wear short skirts?

For a restaurant like Basil’s, this is a real balancing act. I have a lot of sympathy for the management, who are TRYING to make several very different groups happy. I’d have equal sympathy for a Muslim restaurant trying to do a similar balancing act.

I thnk Christians (or agnostics, for that matter) would be inclined to let most resturants set whatever policies they like, and would ONLY become outraged if Muslims (or Hassidim) moved into a new neighborhood, and began demanding that existing businesses start changing their rules to satisfy their religious rules.

It’s not New Yorkers that are looking for a reason to condemn Muslims, it’s a specific group of reactionary conservative commentators that are looking to condemn them.

I think you’re correctly determining the true dilemma of the restaurant vis a vis its relation to its clients, but that’s not what the outside world would see if this were a restaurant catering to Muslims.

Like most people, I would just go somewhere else if I really wanted pepperoni. If they won’t serve it (and they don’t have to), I can always go over to Tony or Vito. They say they are Kosher. They don’t try to hide it or surprise you with it. You know the deal going in.

And they too, would be free to go elsewhere, but they could be upset that the rules at the familiar comfortable place changed. They were going there for a reason. The problem though is, having stricter rules means they have fewer choices. Upsetting long term loyal customers is not a smart move. Maybe there could be a sign in the window, similar to the familiar “no shoes no shirt no service”? Plenty of restaurants have a dress code of some sort.

You got it. I know that Jewish kosher delis have the most jamming sandwiches, and it’s made and prepared according to their rules. So, when I want some, I go there. You get gigantic sandwiches for a great price and in return you accept that some items are not offered (a fair trade off). I also know Guido has the best pepperoni pizza, so when I want some I go there. If however Guido had been forced to change, I’d be annoyed - the rules changed.