If your baby is crying...DO SOMETHING!!

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=fessie]
that people around them shot them evil looks just for talking. Not screaming. Not running. No meltdown involved.
[/quote]

I doubt it. Really, I think if people are giving you nasty looks instead of ignoring you like most people do in stores, you must have drawn their attention. It just means that your senses are calibrated to one level of noise, and other people, trying to browse in a bookstore, might not find it suitable. This violates your idea of what society is supposed to do; nonetheless, your kids irritated people. They probably were not as angelic as you think they were.

And, IMHO, letting them make their own choices starts with simple rituals. Like, for example, HALLOWEEN!

Why not let parents who don’t believe in Halloween or Santa make THEIR own choices? Why Pit them because their parenting choices are different from yours? This seems to be a theme for you.

In my remarks about Santa Claus, I acknowledged right off the bat that it’s not “right” to wish everyone would just STFU and go along with the fat guy in the red suit. I merely stated that in my heart-of-hearts I sometimes grow weary of debating every single aspect of parenting. I had a sentimental moment; sue me.

It wasn’t a sentimental moment-- it was a chauvanistic moment where you admitting that you get aggravated when people don’t conform with your beliefs and practices, and question them. No respect for other people’s way of doing things.

You seem very quick to become defensive over your own parenting, but just as quick to criticize the way others do things. What do you call that? I know what I call it.

[fessie]

Perhaps you should change your name from “rubystreak” to “omniscient”, since you think you know what was happening at my Barnes and Noble when you weren’t even there.

I really don’t care enough to do a search, but if you don’t like the Pit (where people go to complain because they don’t like how other people do things), then don’t read it. And certainly don’t open any threads yourself.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=fessie]
Perhaps you should change your name from “rubystreak” to “omniscient”, since you think you know what was happening at my Barnes and Noble when you weren’t even there.
[/quote]

It’s not too hard to read between the lines of your little story. I’m sure your kids were totally perfect and all the people giving them the hairy eyeball were intolerant monsters. :rolleyes: They probably don’t believe in Santa or Halloween either.

I really don’t care enough to do a search, but if you don’t like the Pit (where people go to complain because they don’t like how other people do things), then don’t read it. And certainly don’t open any threads yourself.

I love the Pit. And what you’re getting right now? If you don’t like it, then YOU should stop reading, because people are taking you to task for your contradictory attitudes.

[fessie]

What, did you get tired of having your ass handed to you in the tattoo thread?

My argument is merely that I am human and imperfect, and so are my kids; five minutes of “bad” behavior is in no way “proof” of bad parenting. Not from my kids, and not from anybody else’s. If you don’t even have children yourself, you really don’t have a basis for understanding the issue at all.

My mistake, and it is a mistake on my part, is trying to explain this to people who don’t want to hear it.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=fessie]
What, did you get tired of having your ass handed to you in the tattoo thread?
[/quote]

What, are you stalking me through the Pit? Go watch your kids scream.

[Jolly_Roger]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
What, are you stalking me through the Pit? Go watch your kids scream.
[/QUOTE]

Actually I don’t think anyone is getting their ass handed to them in the tattoo thread. Its boiling down to “Tattoos are kind of silly because of XYZ reasons” / “Nu uh! I have a tattoo and for XYZ reasons.”

But that has nothing to do with this thread…carry on.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=Jolly Roger]
Actually I don’t think anyone is getting their ass handed to them in the tattoo thread. Its boiling down to “Tattoos are kind of silly because of XYZ reasons” / “Nu uh! I have a tattoo and for XYZ reasons.”

But that has nothing to do with this thread…carry on.
[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t agree more-- the tattoo thread is going nowhere for anyone, really. fessie was taking a cheap shot at me because she’s getting her ass handed to her in this thread.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=fessie]
If you don’t even have children yourself, you really don’t have a basis for understanding the issue at all.
[/QUOTE]
As much as I try to avoid pile-ons, that’s just stupid.

Hate to break this to you, but it’s my earth too. Not only that, but I’m assuming you’re human? Part of the human species? Tribe, village, community and all that? You parade your brats in front of me yes I DO get to judge your parenting skills, just as I get to make snide remarks to my friends about that neon pink skintight lycra outfit you’ve got on.

Don’t like getting looked at and judged, move to your own planet. At the very least, build your own compound and stay there.

You bring your kids out into OUR public, I’m looking, I’m seeing, I’m hearing, and I’m judging.

[CanvasShoes]

[QUOTE=fessie]
CanvasShoes, sure, there are plenty of asshole parents out there, why wouldn’t there be? I’m not confident you (or anyone else) can tell at a glance whether you’re watching a good parent on a bad day – or, conversely, a bad parent on a good day. I knew an experienced Social Worker who told me once that one of the “red flags” of child abuse is parents who go overboard by being super-solicitous in public.

I just don’t think a brief glimpse gives you all that much information. If everyone’s offices were being spied upon all day long, don’t you imagine people who saw a 3-minute snippet would draw all kinds of inaccurate conclusions?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, there ARE lots of asshole parents out there, that’s what the OP is about. That is ALL people are saying. They’re not saying that all parents having a child have a public meltdown are somehow defective. Or that unless their children are perfect little robots at all times that the parent is a bad one. You seem to be taking “when a child has a problem in public, the parent needs to address it” to mean “no child can ever make a peep or have a single mistake out in public or else the parent is a horrible one”. No one is saying that.

They’re saying that parents that allow and ignore these public meltdowns (or worse, those that see nothing wrong with them because it would "stifle the child’s individuality or self-esteem) without doing a single thing are not behaving well in that instance.

I haven’t seen any one say whether they (badly behaving parents they’ve seen) were inherently good or bad. However, from a brief glance we certainly can tell if the parent is, as the OP title says “Doing Something” or not. As in many people’s examples in this and other “bad parent” threads.

[Dangerosa]

I think the difference is I don’t see enough in the OP to classify the parent as an asshole. I’ve done the same. I never took small children to fancy restaurants or rated R movies (we didn’t go to PG ones), never took them to the bar, don’t allow them to run around like little brats in the store. I limited my grocery shopping with kids (most of ours were delivered for three years) and I can’t remember being in a mall shopping for fun with my kids. But I have let my babies cry for 3+ minutes before comforting them in public. And I have kept shopping while they cried. And I’m really wondering how you can tell from a brief glance that “yeah, baby is crying because she has an ear infection and we are in Borders while Target across the street fills her perscription, but there isn’t a lot I can do because I spent all last night trying to comfort and when she has an ear infection it doesn’t do any good anyway.” That’s a LOT to get from a stranger from a glance to know if this person belongs in the bad parent pile.

[Malthus]

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
As much as I try to avoid pile-ons, that’s just stupid.

Hate to break this to you, but it’s my earth too. Not only that, but I’m assuming you’re human? Part of the human species? Tribe, village, community and all that? You parade your brats in front of me yes I DO get to judge your parenting skills, just as I get to make snide remarks to my friends about that neon pink skintight lycra outfit you’ve got on.

Don’t like getting looked at and judged, move to your own planet. At the very least, build your own compound and stay there.

You bring your kids out into OUR public, I’m looking, I’m seeing, I’m hearing, and I’m judging.
[/QUOTE]

This is in fact a very similar issue to that in the tattoo thread.

Yes, you have every right to judge and make snide remarks; you also have every right to be called an asshole for being judgmental, particularly where your judgment is ill-informed and lacks any compassion.

The spiel about " … you’re human? Part of the human species? Tribe, village, community and all that?" is particularly rich. Sorry to break the news to you, but none of those things would exist if people didn’t keep reproducing; so if you wish to not be inconvenienced by the sight and sound of “brats”, I suggest you find your own compound and stay in it where you will be safe.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=Malthus]
This is in fact a very similar issue to that in the tattoo thread.

Yes, you have every right to judge and make snide remarks; you also have every right to be called an asshole for being judgmental, particularly where your judgment is ill-informed and lacks any compassion.

The spiel about " … you’re human? Part of the human species? Tribe, village, community and all that?" is particularly rich. Sorry to break the news to you, but none of those things would exist if people didn’t keep reproducing; so if you wish to not be inconvenienced by the sight and sound of “brats”, I suggest you find your own compound and stay in it where you will be safe.
[/QUOTE]
You sound like one of those parents with entitlement issues who think the whole world is theirs, the minute they become parents. You probably breast feed wherever you feel like it and leave your kids’ dirty diapers wherever you feel like dropping them in public, because everyone else on the planet should “have compassion” for you as a parent. You probably like to bring your screaming infant with you to the 9PM showing of R rated movies and call everyone else in the theater assholes for being judgemental uninformed compassionless jerks who just “don’t understand” what it means to be A Parent[sup]®[/sup]. You probably talk on your cellphone during theater movies too. Yeah, we know your type.

The world’s in no danger of becoming underpopulated if parents suddenly started showing some consideration for other people and doing something about their kids when the start throwing screaming tantrums in inappropriate places. I don’t expect you to even begin to understand the meaning of inappropriate places though, because you’re evidently one of those parents for whom there are no inappropriate places for your kids to throw screaming tantrums.

[Malthus]

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
You sound like one of those parents with entitlement issues who think the whole world is theirs, the minute they become parents. You probably breast feed wherever you feel like it and leave your kids’ dirty diapers wherever you feel like dropping them in public, because everyone else on the planet should “have compassion” for you as a parent. You probably like to bring your screaming infant with you to the 9PM showing of R rated movies and call everyone else in the theater assholes for being judgemental uninformed compassionless jerks who just “don’t understand” what it means to be A Parent[sup]®[/sup]. You probably talk on your cellphone during theater movies too. Yeah, we know your type.

The world’s in no danger of becoming underpopulated if parents suddenly started showing some consideration for other people and doing something about their kids when the start throwing screaming tantrums in inappropriate places. I don’t expect you to even begin to understand the meaning of inappropriate places though, because you’re evidently one of those parents for whom there are no inappropriate places for your kids to throw screaming tantrums.
[/QUOTE]

You ‘probably’ make personal snap judgments about people based on little or no information.

See: my previous comments about being thought an asshole.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=Malthus]
You ‘probably’ make personal snap judgments about people based on little or no information.

See: my previous comments about being thought an asshole.
[/QUOTE]
Mirror, meet Malthus. Malthus, meet mirror.

I’ve never said kids can’t be kids, or shouldn’t be kids, or won’t be kids. When you’re in public, you get judged. Maybe you don’t understand the meaning of judged. It’s not always a bad thing.

People are not islands. We don’t inhabit our own world. We share our world with everyone else. The reason we have such large brains is because we spend so much time observing and interpreting and interacting with other people. The reason we have rules, and customs and traditions and laws is so we can live together. If you want to live outside all that, go for it. But you can’t enjoy life inside society, behaving as if you exist outside society.

[Malthus]

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Mirror, meet Malthus. Malthus, meet mirror.
[/quote]

My mirror is saying "I don’t know jackshit about levdrakon’s habits in the movie theatre, so I won’t insult him or her by saying anything about them. "

My mirror is wise. You should listen to it.

I’ve never said kids can’t be kids, or shouldn’t be kids, or won’t be kids. When you’re in public, you get judged. Maybe you don’t understand the meaning of judged. It’s not always a bad thing.

Kids will be kids and assholes will judge parents because of it. Got it.

People are not islands. We don’t inhabit our own world. We share our world with everyone else. The reason we have such large brains is because we spend so much time observing and interpreting and interacting with other people. The reason we have rules, and customs and traditions and laws is so we can live together. If you want to live outside all that, go for it. But you can’t enjoy life inside society, behaving as if you exist outside society.

You speak with the voice of society now? Amazing. First I have to meet my mirror, and now Society, as Personified.

Last I heard a bunch of people in this thread were compaining about how “society” provides such entitlement to “the cult of the child”. I guess if they are right they just have to suck it up, correct?

To my mind, the better way to proceed is for parents and non-parents to attempt to put themselves in each other’s shoes, in good faith - for parents to try as best they can to be polite and not annoy others when in public; and for non-parents to have compassion and understanding in those quite inevitable cases where children behave disruptively, and to at least attempt to conceive of the fact that sometimes kids cannot be controlled and whisking them away is impractical. Just a simple operation of the good ol’ Golden Rule.

Of course, that’s hard to do, requiring thought, consideration and imagination, so I suppose it is a heck of a lot easier for non-parents to simply demand that parents not annoy them with their “brats”.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=Malthus]
Last I heard a bunch of people in this thread were compaining about how “society” provides such entitlement to “the cult of the child”. I guess if they are right they just have to suck it up, correct?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think “society” (which is a rhetorical construct, not an actual monolithic entity) provides entitlement to the “cult of the child.” I think some people with children have created this cult and are totally brainwashed members of it. These are the people who bring their kids to inappropriate places (like the 10pm showing of Interview with the Vampire– yeah, I was sitting behind that kid), who let their kid have a 10 minute tantrum in a bookstore, who let their kids throw food at people in restaurants. They get on their high horse if anyone looks askance at them or their kids, or attempts to address the situation.

Honestly, probably not a lot can be done in this situation. You can’t make people parent their kids differently-- you can only ask them to leave if they are disturbing others, and then you’ll get told you’re not being compassionate, etc. You can’t make people tolerate kid behavior if they find it intolerable-- they will just give the kid the hairy eyeball and leave the store early, or complain to the usher in the theatre, or whatever. It’s an impasse.

Of course more tolerance and understanding of other people’s situations would go a long way on each side to making it all easier to deal with…

[Malthus]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I don’t think “society” (which is a rhetorical construct, not an actual monolithic entity) provides entitlement to the “cult of the child.” I think some people with children have created this cult and are totally brainwashed members of it. These are the people who bring their kids to inappropriate places (like the 10pm showing of Interview with the Vampire– yeah, I was sitting behind that kid), who let their kid have a 10 minute tantrum in a bookstore, who let their kids throw food at people in restaurants. They get on their high horse if anyone looks askance at them or their kids, or attempts to address the situation.

Honestly, probably not a lot can be done in this situation. You can’t make people parent their kids differently-- you can only ask them to leave if they are disturbing others, and then you’ll get told you’re not being compassionate, etc. You can’t make people tolerate kid behavior if they find it intolerable-- they will just give the kid the hairy eyeball and leave the store early, or complain to the usher in the theatre, or whatever. It’s an impasse.

Of course more tolerance and understanding of other people’s situations would go a long way on each side to making it all easier to deal with…
[/QUOTE]

Quite right.

Some complaints about parents tolerating or causing problems are fully justified; some are not. Depends on the persons involved and on the context.

I’d be willing to give the harrassed mom in the food or drug store, or on the subway, a lot more leeway and compassion than the parents with a kid in an adult movie at 10 PM (who shouldn’t even be there in the first place).

There is common ground and sanity to be found.

What I find annoying is the arguments along the lines of (in paraphrase) ‘how dare parents take kids anywhere in public, where they may annoy me. If they do, they must instantly hush their kids or prove themselves BAD PARENTS.’

For a person attempting to be moral and compassionate, living in society means having to tolerate those who cause a disturbance to the orderly flow and quiet enjoyment thereof - the elderly, handicapped, children. Within reason. You offer a subway seat to an obviously infirm old person - this doesn’t entitle him or her to wack you with their cane for fun; you tolerate a certain level of noise and rowdiness from children - this doesn’t entitle parents to bring them to The Late Show, and scream in your ear.

[Jackmannii]

[QUOTE=Malthus]
What I find annoying is the arguments along the lines of (in paraphrase) ‘how dare parents take kids anywhere in public, where they may annoy me. If they do, they must instantly hush their kids or prove themselves BAD PARENTS.’
[/quote]

@Malthus

You ‘probably’ make personal snap judgments about people based on little or no information.

[Malthus]

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]

[/QUOTE]

Okay, I’ll bite.

Are you claiming that my paraphrase is a “snap personal judgment about people” based on “little or no information”?

If so, I’ll happily point to: (1) it is a comment about an argument, not a person; (2) it isn’t directed to a specific individual; and (3) as for “little or no information”, there are a plethora of examples in this rather lengthy thread proving I have a basis for the paraphrase.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=Malthus]
Okay, I’ll bite.

Are you claiming that my paraphrase is a “snap personal judgment about people” based on “little or no information”?

If so, I’ll happily point to: (1) it is a comment about an argument, not a person; (2) it isn’t directed to a specific individual; and (3) as for “little or no information”, there are a plethora of examples in this rather lengthy thread proving I have a basis for the paraphrase.

[/QUOTE]
Could you point us to the plethora of examples of people in this very thread saying “how dare parents take kids anywhere in public, where they may annoy me. If they do, they must instantly hush their kids or prove themselves BAD PARENTS.”

Please? I mean, since there’s a plethora I don’t expect you to cite every example. But since this thread is on page eight, you should be able to easily come up with oh, twenty or thirty examples.