An open letter to the public about my noisy kids

Inspired by this thread. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=705626I offer this to the child-free not as an excuse for my noisy, nosy kids but as an explanation to why they seem to get a pass on some behaviors adults would be spanked for. My girl is 13, but I’m helping raise two toddlers for the next few months. For the purposes of this thread, I’ll also call the crawling baby and the toddler “mine”. If anyone has an special needs children, this might also be a good place to explain the quirks and allowances required to raise our kids.

Kids make a lot of noise, but there is a difference between a tantrum, an injury and joy.

My child just started walking and is squealing from the pure joy of her new found freedom and accomplishments. She’s not complaining, shes reveling and it’s some of nature’s best music, on par with puppies and kittens playing. I don’t expect you to like it, but if you’ll pause for a second and look at her face, you’ll see what a tremendous leap in learning and growth she has just made. Sometimes she squeals when she’s given crayons in a restaurant. Sometimes she squeals just to hear her own voice. I’ll teach her to use her inside voice when it counts, like church and funerals and other unavoidably somber locations. I will also teach her not to scream as though she is frightened, but most of the time and in most locations kids are allowed, I’m going to share in her joy and grin when she chatters and squeals.

My child doesn’t know any better than to stare at you. *Please *and thank you were easy, but “it isn’t polite to stare/give advice/correct people/interrupt” are complex concepts and it takes years to teach the nuanced social skills that many adults never quite get the hang of.

My child will pick up a ball she discovers in a store and throw it because that’s what we do with balls at home. I’m working on teaching her not to handle things that don’t belong to her, but as yet she doesn’t realize that toys in a store are not meant to be played with. Explaining yes, these are toys and yes they are in reach and irresistible but they are not to be touched is conundrum of Herculean proportion. Again, we’re working on that, but it’s a tough concept.

I’m trying to teach my child autonomy of her body while still encouraging her to be friendly and approachable. Please don’t grab her tiny hands or pick her up or force a hug on her. And don’t pressure her by asking to hold her. If she feels comfortable coming to you she will, but it’s in her best interest to be wary of over-friendly strangers even if your intentions are the best and you truly love children. Don’t be offended or hurt by her rejection, because I’m teaching her to reject the advances of strangers. It’s my job.

If she does approach you and speaks a line of gibberish, don’t get nervous and attempt to interpret. I don’t know what the heck she is jabbering about, either. I just make something up and go along with it. You can do the same. “Is that so? Well, just yesterday I saw a puppy playing. Do you have a dog?” She won’t understand you, either, but she’ll be delighted at being included in the conversation and you’ll be doing a service by helping socialize her.

My children have near zero control over their environments. The list of things they are not allowed to do is infinite, the list of things they want to do and are actually allowed to do is infinitesimal. They hear “no”, “don’t touch”, “you can’t”, “it’s dangerous” and all the variants all day long. They get away with very little. But they are encouraged to play, chatter, and laugh when and where it is safe to do so, and that includes stores which sell toys, restaurants which offer crayons, all public parks, and every yard in the neighborhood.

My thirteen year old and most teenagers are a bit more sophisticated than we give them credit for. Don’t talk down to her, she has a huge vocabulary and can keep up with any conversation. More than likely a greeting and how are you or how’s school is all that’s necessary. She probably isn’t interested in our conversation, but she can certainly keep up nearly as well as any adult. Just acknowledge her the same as you would any adult in a group.

When I say things like “My child can do no wrong” what I mean is “I love her unconditionally, and nothing she could do would make me love her less.” It doesn’t mean that my child is better than other children. It means she/they are the most important people in my world. Also, within the last week she has fallen off the deck stairs, unlocked the cabinet of cleaning supplies and carried a bottle of bleach to me, took a bone right out of the dog’s mouth, and recovered from a fever of 103. I’m so glad she survived another week without a broken neck, accidental poisoning, a missing digit, and recovered from a terrifying fever that her squeals of happiness and joie de vivre are music to my ears.

Too long, didn’t read version: my kids might be making noise but they aren’t getting away with murder. They are learning how to conduct themselves politely in public but it isn’t an instant process.

I don’t have a problem with kids like these. It doesn’t even bother me if a kid is crying. They’re kids, it’s what they do, they don’t know how to deal with the world otherwise.

It’s the egregious behavior that sticks out, as in everything.

I was going to object to this. However, based on this -

It sounds as if the problem might be self-limiting.

Regards,
Shodan

I’ve taken care of a ton of kids, and I find it easy with almost every single one to not let them scream at volumes that are uncomfortable to hear, for no particular reason. Just with gentle discouragement, not crushing their spirits or anything. My mom did daycare for 20 years and agrees with me. Yet so many fucking parents let their little banshees do it.

I don’t know what kind of volume you’re talking about. I might think it was totally appropriate or I might think you should make the little darlings stfu.

And btw, I’m just talking about kids screaming to hear themselves scream. Not because they’re hurt, scared, or even overly tired (but if that’s the case, people should get their kid out of the public’s earshot when at all reasonable). But so many kids walk around just fucking screaming, or as I’ve lately seen twice, blowing a very loud, shrill whistle over and over again at the mall. I told one of the parents not to let his kid do that (I just shot him a dirty look at first and then he came over to confront me, so that’s why I even said anything) and he called me a bitch and tried to make his kid do it more.

Little girls screaming is the worst. It triggers an instant reaction to go run and see who is being murdered. And yes, even when I was playing outside, my parents told me not to scream like that. They told me people would worry, and think I was getting hurt, and to save those screams for when I was actually being hurt.

Or the ever-popular “I’ll give you something to scream about”.

Regards,
Shodan

What an incredibly jerkish thing to say. Either you aren’t a parent or you had the miraculous experience of raising perfectly healthy children in a perfectly pristine and child-proofed environment with nary a bump, bruise or germ.

Re “screams”, my youngest isn’t screaming. I’ve only heard her scream once when the UPS man suddenly appeared in the doorway and startled her. She squeals and laughs very loud, and some of her squeals are high pitched and irritating. But none of her noises sound as though she is frightened or hurt. He older sister is, as yet, non-verbal due to some yet to be identified developmental disorder. The happy noises are, by contrast, a really good thing. The silence from her sister is much harder to take.

(Again, not my children, we have temporary custody while a family member gets herself together after an illness and sudden and ugly divorce)

And you don’t discourage that?

That’s fine and it’s impossible to tell from your post if yours are the children that people complain about but it is possible to limit your negative impact on others without crushing your childrens spirit.

I started taking my son to restaurants when he was a week old. Yes I was deep in the “kids will not change my lifestyle” denial but that’s not the point. There were many meals he slept through completely and some he sat quietly for and many many others that I left early with my friends bringing me my dinner in a to go box because as soon as he got fussy enough for others to hear we left.

This was our strategy for their entire childhood. If we wanted to do something and were unsure if the kids would behave for it there was a backout plan. A place to take the kids (that was terribly unfun and undesirable) if they failed to behave to our standards. By the time they were 6&7 they knew and the need for the backout plan was pretty much gone.

So basically saying they’re learning is fine if you’re willing to remove them from a situation that’s not working. Saying we don’t play with toys in the store works if you’re willing to take the ball away, less so if you just repeat the words as your child throws balls at random shoppers.

I think you may be vastly overestimating the level of interest that other people have in your kids.

Yes. And lessons start at home. You should be teaching your kids to eat nicely at home. One of the Dopers, overlyverbose, I think, did this, and by the time she took the kids out to restaurants, they were perfectly well-behaved.

I love my niece and nephew. But damn if they aren’t the loudest kids in the restaurant. It’s a little embarrasing to look over and see kids same age or younger sitting quietly, eating their food while my nephew dips his chicken into his water glass and crows about it.

Anytime your kid is being disruptive, you should be doing something about it. Soothing them, disciplining them, distracting them, walking out the door with them…SOMETHING. All kids are disruptive sometimes and I don’t judge parents for that as long as they’re trying. Which many aren’t.

While you’re at it, CLee, you can explain to me why your decision to have kids should negatively affect me in public places.

So far we’ve only had to leave one restaurant due to a crying jag, but working with three kids is new to us so I’m expecting we’ll be eating more meals at home until they have a bit more time to get used to our rules. Please, thank you, and excuse me are the buzzwords this month, and the first the one year old and four year old ever heard of the concept.

This discussion shouldn’t concern you then.

We do meals at the table with napkins and silverware, and have made terrific progress. So far our biggest problem is with staring. The four year old can hold eye contact longer than is comfortable for almost anyone, and we’re having a tough time curbing that impulse.

And to blackberry, no, she’s one. She only began walking two weeks ago, and is delighted with herself and we are, too. We weren’t certain if she might not also have developmental delays, and we’re thrilled with her sudden progress. We’ll be working on the noise problem as her vocabulary grows but so far the only “rule” is no shrieking. Happy noises are fine with us and the nearest neighbors who know what we are working with.

She’s not screaming, she’s shrieking? Sorry, you and she need to learn to control it. And as for picking up balls and throwing them in the store? That’s what the seat of the cart is there to prevent. The kid may be happy, but still be aggravating the hell out of the folks around you. If I took an undisciplined, noisy dog into the store, where it barked, jumped on people, urinated on the shelves and grabbed groceries, I’d be kicked out in short order. Your child is no different. Control it or leave it at home.

StG

I think you are asking me to speak for disinterested parents, inexperienced parents, and foolish parents, too, and I just can’t. All I can do is answer on behalf of parents who enjoy parenting, and who realize what a monumental task raising a human is.

It shouldn’t, which is why we avoid movies above a G rating and restaurants with an adult theme or bar and of course they aren’t allowed near a salad bar or shared food spaces. I can’t make any promises about grocery stores and stores which sell toys or parks, zoos and the like. Right now our biggest tasks are teaching them not to touch every surface since cold and flu season is right around the corner and pretty soon I’m concerned that the one year old will experience the urge to run, so we’ve got a death grip on her hand right now. But two are big talkers, and if you make eye contact, they will probably chatter at you. It’s up to you how you handle it, but I’d appreciate any help I can get with teaching them how to politely converse.

Parents aren’t owed any favors and frankly I’m not sure why we get tax breaks, but I do appreciate when strangers understand that a kid’s brain isn’t anything like an adult brain, and they do profoundly stupid and dangerous things without thinking. They aren’t deliberately trying to make a nuisance of themselves, because almost no kid wants to be punished or restricted, but they really don’t know the rules and can’t learn them all at once. I spend nearly every second of my time in a constant dialogue with them “It’s okay to do this, you cannot do that” kind of thing. I’m embarrassed when my kids (I’m including the two who aren’t my kids but are in my care at the moment) do something rude or stupid, and I’d rather have a quiet, uneventful outing. But after even one child there is no such thing as a simple trip to get milk and bread, there are far too many distractions and temptations in every public place. It’s exhausting, but it’s fascinating, too, this process of teaching kids how to human. Also, I’m aware that you don’t love them, but I do, and I want them to succeed and find a niche.

:smiley:

I have measured the decibel levels of screaming, shrieking kids (there’s an app for that, it’s a decibel meter) and found that the decibel range is typically 89-110 dB, threshold for hearing damage is 88 dB and is cumulative, the scale is logarithmic, every 3 dB DOUBLES the damage and HALVES the exposure time, a 91 dB noise is twice as loud as a 88 dB sound
So, please forgive me if I don’t share in your joy, it hurts my ears (literally)

Here are things ALMOST as loud as your joyful kid;
(Assuming a child with a healthy set of lungs capable of producing a 100 dB shriek)

Jet takeoff (at 1000 feet), outboard motor, farm tractor, garbage truck, very heavy Traffic, all 100 dB

The seat of the cart is for the one year old, the four year old walks very well and holds hands. She does not need to be in a seat, she needs to learn how to walk alongside the adults calmly and she needs the exercise. We avoid the toy aisle at all costs, but when the four year old encountered a stray ball in the middle of the tech aisle at Walmart last week, yeah, she threw it. Hard. And clapped at her accomplishment. And I had to kneel down and explain to a nonverbal kid why you can’t throw a ball in the store, but you can throw one at home. I’m almost positive a couple onlookers thought I should have spanked her, but I’ve never spanked and have no idea if she’d ever been taught how to behave in public. Of course, onlookers have no idea that she is new to my family, doesn’t speak, yada yada, and it sounds like it’s safe to assume you wouldn’t sympathize, either, but please bear in mind you may not know the whole story.

I agree with your statement about manners 100%, but you wouldn’t put your lab in a cart in PetSmart, you’d walk him on a leash. And that’s exactly what I’d expect you to do. And if he sniffs a few butts and toys, that’s exactly what I’d expect him to do. You should likewise expect a four year old to examine things that are within her reach. And I’ll do my best to stay ahead of her, but my best is all I’ve got.