[QUOTE=Spoons]
Perhaps it’s a cultural difference, “back then” or not. Here in Canada, with no interstates to speak of, we flew. Road trips, such as you mention, were rarely taken–we didn’t know if the road between Ontario and Manitoba was even open at this time of year! It was easier to fly or take the train, so we did.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, that’s possibly the difference right there. I certainly didn’t appreciate RickJay calling me a liar, tho. 
[QUOTE=RickJay]
But most kids TODAY are well behaved, as you would notice if you’d actually take time to look. Most kids at all times have been well behaved. Are you telling me there weren’t ANY kids who were badly behaved when you were a kid?
So according to you, kids are worse now than 20 years ago. But also according to you, your own sibling who would have been a kid less than 20 years ago - according to you, she’s 19 - WASN’T poorly behaved. So do you really think your family is special and better than most others? I
[/QUOTE]
First, I DO notice when kids are well behaved and make sure and complimet the parents! I just did so yesterday in the supermarket. We must have differing opinions on “well behaved” because I wouldn’t say MOST. I’d say some. You are seriously telling me that you think society hasn’t changed at all? Child rearing hasn’t changed one bit in the last 20-50 years? Bullshit. Our grandparents wouldn’t have put up with most of the shit that goes on now. I know that my parents wouldn’t!
Of course there were badly behaved kids when I was young, just not in the quantity that you see now. Kids are allowed to run amok and tear shit up. Many parents are NOT watching their kids in stores. They knock shit off the shelves and then want to sue when precious gets hurt.
And yes, I DO think my family is pretty damn special, isn’t yours? 
That’s not to say we’re better, just special. I know that I and my sisters damn well understood the consequences if we ever dared to misbehave in public. These days, kids don’t have any. Ever watch Nanny 911?
RickJay, you are not going to ever give an inch, because your kids would never, ever bother a soul. Your brain has turned to mush and you have forgotten what pre-fatherhood life is all about.
FWIW, I’m not a child hater. I like most normal adults, want to live in a world with an acceptable level of noise. And I actually don’t ever blame the kids either, its the damn selfish parents.
Calling a babysitter IS a lot less attractive than it used to be, and it’s because of all the horror stories about babysitters treating babies badly. Being a “good parent” in this day and age means knowing the personal history of everyone with whom your small fry come into contact.
Parents don’t even let their kids go to the library story hour on their own – they’re down in the story room with them nowadays. When I worked at a public library in 1988, that was not permitted, the 3-yr-olds traipsed down the hall on their own.
Nowadays you’re not even supposed to leave your own 12-yr-old at home alone (there are actual laws about this), much less hire one to watch your kids, so you have to find someone older. Which means they expect real money.
I agree that a screaming nuisance is not a good thing – very few people actually WANT that, or tolerate it easily. I’ve seen just as many parents OVER-discipline as under.
But in terms of the compartmentalization you desire, you guys without children don’t understand that having kids DOES take over your life. It’s like you have another appendage, who goes everywhere with you. Our children are a part of us.
Kids ARE noisy, messy and unpredictable. So is life. Deal.
Then please consider that if your kid cannot leave your side for any reason, there are places you should opt not to go because children don’t belong there.
Children do not belong in bars that don’t have a kids’ menu. Children don’t belong in restaurants where people are paying a substantial amount of money for a quiet three-hour dinner. They don’t belong in R-rated movies, particularly those that start at 9 pm or later. And if they do start to misbehave and make a scene, it is the parent’s responsibility to remove them from that scene.
That they ‘go everywhere with you’ does not mean that other people should have to put up with their tantrums and their misbehavior.
I chose not to be a parent. That does not mean that you get force me to deal with your kids and their unruly behavior. I have no responsibility to ‘deal’ with noisy, messy and unpredictable.
[QUOTE=catsix]
Children do not belong in bars that don’t have a kids’ menu. Children don’t belong in restaurants where people are paying a substantial amount of money for a quiet three-hour dinner. They don’t belong in R-rated movies, particularly those that start at 9 pm or later.
[/quote]
I strongly agree with all of these. Absolutely. You’re right.
This is where I think you guys are going over the line. I think it’s unreasonable to expect that you’ll never cross paths with children in public. “Normal” kid behavior IS sometimes unruly. They’re NOT mini-adults, and adult standards of misbehavior don’t apply.
That was what got me about Captain_C’s earlier remark re: shouting in a bookstore – what about mentally disabled adults? I’ve seen “special needs” people (who simply can’t conform to typical standards of behavior) gesticulating in bookstores or at concerts. Do you propose to banish them from all public venues?
I grew up in a very small house where there was no place in the house that you could go and read or do your homework without hearing the t.v. Subsequently you learned to tune out extraneous noise. As the family size has decreased, and the house size has increased, we’ve lost the skill to tune out background noise. That’s too bad because it’s a really handy skill. I doubt I would have ever noticed the child in the OP.
That being said, if I felt my child was being disruptive (and that is all dependent on the noise level and atmosphere), I would have taken him outside and strolled him/her in the parking lot/sidewalk until he had calmed down. There is no excuse for being an ogre.
Of course, I’ve occasionally heard adults carry on loud and inappropriate cell phone conversations in public, and I think they should be out in the parking lot, too. Whatever; tune them out.
As far as bringing kids into restaurants, airplanes, etc. I, personally, didn’t bring my young kids into nicer restaurants until they were old enough to sit still for at least 1.5 hours. I just wouldn’t have found the experience to be enjoyable as it’s exhausting trying to keep a toddler entertained when their natural impulse is to run. However, if you want to give it a go, good luck to you. I doubt you’ll bother me though why you’d want to subject yourself to it is beyond me. The restaurant will be there next year.
Carol Stream, TLC had a show on the airline industry just the other day. The demographics for flying have, indeed, changed dramatically since we were kids. Kids didn’t fly very often…but neither did women. Flying used to be the bastion of upper level businessmen, which explains why the airlines only hired young, pretty women to be stewardesses. Airlines have done a really poor job at changing their business model to make flying a more enjoyable experience for all their passengers. Whenever you lump toddlers in with businessmen, you’re going to have a serious clash of cultures. Why they don’t do more to address this problem is beyond me.
[QUOTE=fessie]
But in terms of the compartmentalization you desire, you guys without children don’t understand that having kids DOES take over your life. It’s like you have another appendage, who goes everywhere with you. Our children are a part of us.
[/QUOTE]
On the contrary, I would argue that those of us who don’t have children yet/ever understand this fact perfectly well. If we didn’t, then a good number of us would have kids already.
That was a very good article, Pixie. Here’s a couple of other good ones I’ve found recently - “Screaming Meemies,” addressing how parents slide into a “cult of the child” attitude unknowingly and another interesting one about parental peer pressure.
My husband made a very good point about “kids today;” he said that children are the same as they’ve always been, it’s the parents who have changed.
The child (ren) may well be an appendage, but they cannot be treated as such. In fact, I dislike that analogy–you are out in public with your children, not an appendage. When you go out in public with friends or your parents, you do not treat them as appendages, you act correctly towards them, meaning you talk to them, behave courtesily toward them etc. Hell, people are more attentive to their dogs in public than they are to their kids or so it seems. And therein lies a great deal of the problem.
Pay attention to your kid(s) while out in public. Don’t run errands during or near nap or mealtime. Don’t shove your 18 month old into a stroller and then proceed to do the entire mall with your girlfriend–you are setting yourself up for disaster. If you want a day outing with friends, hire a sitter or tell Dad to stay home. There are plenty of good sitters out there-if you can’t afford a sitter, can you really afford to do the entire mall? If you cannot plan around their schedule, then allow for it. Pack snacks, toys, comfort things for the kid. Pack your patience too, and realize that getting them through this is as important as getting those errands done.
If your baby or rugrat acts up, cries, throws a tantrum etc–pay attention to your child. At home, you might let them cry it out. In public, you do NOT have that luxury. This is part of being a parent. If this means you miss the ending of that movie or cut out dessert or don’t get some errands done-that’s the way it is. Chances are, if you treat your child respectfully (as in knowing their limits-and yours), the times when you have to cut outings short will diminish.
IMO, a baby shouldn’t be crying for 2-3 minutes (which seems an eternity to helpless bystanders) in a store, ever. Mine didn’t-and I am not SuperParent. I just followed the above guidelines and also “caught my kids being good.” By that I mean, I involved the kids in the shopping. If we were getting the oil changed, we discussed cars and all things related. If we were grocery shopping, we did alphabet stuff or colors or shapes etc. Yes, it’s work and a PIA at times-so are kids.
IMO, kids (some, not all) are out of control because the parents aren’t in control. I liked that article–it has a lot of common sense. It is referring to toddlers and preschoolers, though, not babies. Like everything else, parenting must be fluid and flexible. You can’t choose to ignore a tantrum on a plane or let a baby cry it out there, either. But as a general guide to changing behavior over time-that article is sound.
I am a parent of 3 kids. I see both sides to this–to a point. There are difficult kids out there, but overwhelmingly, they are difficult due to inconsistency from the parents. It’s a damned hard job-and it’s 24/7. I have some sympathy for the tired parents. But not enough to condone bad behavior in public.
Right, when you take your kids everywhere with you and then don’t pay attention to them the end up ruining intricate works of sand art meticulously created over several days time by Buddhist monks. And who lets there 3 year old wander off in a train station anyway?
[QUOTE=Wile E]
Right, when you take your kids everywhere with you and then don’t pay attention to them the end up ruining intricate works of sand art meticulously created over several days time by Buddhist monks. <snip>
[/QUOTE]
Well, at least a Buddhist monk might thank you for helping him work on his patience and temper control that day. 
First of all, 5-4 Fighting, if you feel I misinterpreted your position I didn’t mean to. I was aiming at the inevitable rush of fools who were going to come in saying “Most kids are hellions, the world is plagued with children who misbehave, all is lost.” Ridiculous exaggeration is the inevitable outcome of these threads. For instance, I will now reply to, and therefore highlight, one poster who claims that when s/he was a child it was unthinkable to bring children onto airplanes or into stores - a rather obvious and idiotic falsehood, or else why did they have Christmas Santas in department stores? - and another poster who does, in fact, claim that more than half of all children are chronically misbehaved, and that this has changed just since she was a kid a grand total of 25-30 years ago. (You’ll recall how the 70s and 80s were considered the golden years of child behaviour :rolleyes:) THIS is the sort of idiocy I was going after and I apologize if I lumped you in with them mistakenly.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
I didn’t fly until freshman year of college. I just asked my husband (he’s the same age as I), and he didn’t fly until an overseas vacation sometime after college.
So no, people did NOT bring children on airplanes in general, back in the day.
[/QUOTE]
You’re kidding, I assume, by saying “Well, my husband and I didn’t go on planes when we were a kid, and therefore it was unthinkable then to bring a child onto an airplane.” You do realize you were not the only children on earth? What the hell is wrong with you? Or are you now changiung your story? In your last post it was “unthinkable.” Now you’re saying it wasn’t “Generally” done, which of course is meaningless, since it’s “generally” the case that most adults don’t fly on airplanes on a regular basis.
Do you REALLY want me to have to trot out examples of kids being on airplanes in the 1960s, 1970s, et al.?
Let me me absolutely clear: When you said “it was unthinkable” when you were young to bring kids onto airplanes, that statement was unquestionably false. Children have been routinely brought onto airplanes for the entire history of mass commercial aviation, a fact that is rather easily supported if you really insist on it. Shit, they used to issue little pin-on wings to the stewardesses to give to kids. I was on a plane when I was six years old, in 1977, and was one of six or seven kids on the Eastern Airlines 727 who got to go up and see the cockpit (security was just a little bit more casual then.) Children were brought on airplanes all the time when you were a kid, too, unless you’re 87 and the planes all had propellers and machine guns. So your claim that it was “unthinkable” is not only false, it’s obviously false. It’s transparent bullshit; how do you think people, say, went to Disneyland if they lived in Canada? Do you think nobody who went on vacation in Hawaii ever brought their children? Please, do provide us with the evidence that nobody when you were a kid ever brought children onto airplanes, that it was “unthinkable.”
Now, a reply to Cattitude:
Really? You compliment EVERY parent of every well behaved kid? Even half of them? Even ten percent of them? Impossible.
Not two hours ago I was in the Wal-Mart in Burlington, Ontario at Appleby and Highway 5, and there were scores, maybe hundreds of children in there; not a single one was acting badly enough for me to notice. Granted, it’s a big store and maybe a kid was acting up at the other end of the store I couldn’t hear, but I walked by a lot of them and saw none going apeshit. Every kid I walked by was just going along with their parents doing this and that. I didn’t hear one temper tantrum, didn’t see one kid being dragged out screaming. Once in awhile I see that, but never more than once or twice in a single visit and today, as it happens, not at all. It would have been completely impossible for someone who compliment all those parents; I’d still be over there doing it.
You DON’T notice most well behaved kids because people who aren’t going berzerk or crying don’t get noticed. You can’t really notice everyone around you, kids or adults, unless they do something to draw your attention. You couldn’t function that way. Unless you never go anywhere where there’s a lot of people, congratulating even 5% of all parents of non-misbehaving children would become a full-time occupation.
Really? Are you seriously telling me that if you were to go to a public place - a Wal-Mart, say, or just a place a lot of people walk by - that out of the first 100 children you saw, fewer than fifty-one would be misbehaving in some way? You’re actually saying that with a straight face? Holy fuck, that’s not only beyond the limits of belief, it’s a moneymaking opportunity; I’ll bet you that if we were to come to a mutual agreement on what constitutes age-appropriate misbehaviour, and meet at a mutually agreeable place and have a third party judge the behaviour of the first 1000 children that go by, I’ll put down $10,000 cash money that more than 50% qualify as not misbehaving. Shit, I’ll make the threshold 60% and give you two to one odds. I’ll enjoy spending your money, too. And I don’t like misbehaving kids, so my threshold isn’t going to be all that liberal.
This, by the way, is a serious offer. I’d happily take that bet.
If MORE THAN HALF of all kids regularly acted up in public places it’d be nearly impossible to conduct retail commerce.
That is, in fact, exactly what I am saying. Pretty much, anyway.
I am saying right here and now that parenting has not really changed in any substantive way, and that the behaviour of children is no worse than it ever was. I am saying that while styles of parenting are in some regards superficially different, and attention to children’s health is definitely a lot better than it used to be in many respects - forty years ago pregnant women would routinely smoke, for instance - generally speaking parents are just as attentive to their children as they have always been. I am saying that you are fooling yourself into thinking kids were better behaved when they were your age, or before then; we’re the same age, more or less, and I remember damned well that lots of kids were disruptive, threw temper tantrums in stores, and the whole nine yards. I can remember a lot of bad apples. And I was a really good kid in general, but I had my bad days, too. And so did you. You aren’t Jesus Christ, and I bet dollars to donuts that while you might have usually been a good kid there were times you weren’t.
What IS happening here is that you’re getting old. Sorry to break it to you. Old people always remember that “kids were better behaved in my day.” Old people said it about kids of our age, too, the kids of the 70s that you seem to remember are really well behaved. Kid misbehaviour was a huge complaint then, just as it is now, despite what you remember. When the kids today are grownups they’ll say the same stupid shit.
It seems like there is a huge disconnect here. There a couple people, and I’m sorry, but they come off as child haters who say, “Kids are stinky and awful, and since I have chosen not to have any I shouldn’t have to see them in public.” This is asinine.
Then there are other people who say, “Kids sometimes misbehave. I think there are some places children should not go, like fancy restaurants, or R rated movies late at night, but even in other places, if a child acts up they should be removed from the premises, out of politeness to other people.” And besides the above mentioned child haters, I don’t see anyone disagreeing with that.
We may have a couple disagreements on which places are verboten for children, and which places are fine to bring a well behaved child, but I haven’t seen anyone say children should be allowed anywhere and be allowed to act however they please. I never said that, certainly, and I’m not sure how I got characterized as espousing that view. I have a problem, a BIG problem, with people who think they are special enough that they don’t have to ever see or deal with children, simply by virtue of choosing not to have had any. Life doesn’t work like that. There are certainly places children shouldn’t go, lots of them. And you won’t ever see mine there, I promise. People who ruin a nice restaurant with a screaming toddler suck, big time.
But bringing a baby to a store in the middle of the day just doesn’t cross this line in my opinion. Babies are usually very well behaved. Mine slept through every shopping trip I took them on until they were almost six months old. Now, I never took them to places babies shouldn’t go, on the off chance something did happen, but for the most part they really are no problem. And listening to a baby fuss in a shop for a minute or two, which is what the OP is about, is really not indicative of some larger societal problem with misbehaving children.
RickJay>>>>
Oh thank you Rick Jay. Yes, 39 is quite ancient I know. But I look pretty damn good so I’m okay with “getting old”
Ha!!! That was a good one, thanks for the laugh… Parents are busier than ever and there are some GREAT ones out there but things have definitely changed. One major thing is the number of single parents. That alone changes the whole face of child rearing. Sorry but you can’t convince me that things are the same as they were 20-50 years ago. Nope!!!
As per my mother, I had exactly one small tantrum, EVER. Just one. All 3 of us were quite well behaved. Liek I said, we had consequences.
Very good point!!!
And EleanorRigby-Great post and you seem like a great parent. I bet your kids are a pleasure to be around.
[QUOTE=Cattitude]
Ha!!! That was a good one, thanks for the laugh… Parents are busier than ever and there are some GREAT ones out there but things have definitely changed.
[/QUOTE]
Show me the proof, please, not anecdotes.
If you are still insisting that most children are misbehaved, would you like to accept my bet?
I’m putting down $10,000 and giving you two to one odds that, if we were to appoint a third party to apply a mutually agreed to standard of age-appropriate behaviour to the first 1000 children to go by in a public place, that more than half will not be misbehaving. YOU claimned that most kids were not well behaved. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is, or would you want to retract that claim?
Really? You never, say, had a tantrum when your Mom wasn’t around? Never got into a disagreement with another kid? Ever? Never got into a pushing match? Never complained or whined about anything?
If that’s true, might I congratulate you on being the Messiah. But you were not typical of children of that era. I know, because I was there.
I do think that things are different now. I see fewer instances of “please” and “thank you” for just one example. Also, the concept of waiting (and waiting patiently) seems to be fading(if not gone completely)–for both kids and adults. I don’t know who to blame (if blame is to be given).
I think it just is. But I do know who to blame when a small child has a tantrum in a store-yes, he may well be a hellborn brat and you may well be fit to be tied, but you are still responsible for his behavior in public.
Babies are different, but one thing about babies–they’re completely dependent on the adult. Which means if they’re crying, they are attempting to communicate. If you were with an adult and they were attempting to communicate, most likey you would pay attention to them. Too many parents don’t do this and Baby disrupts the store for all. Baby just wants her needs known-it is up to the parent to respond.
I am around the same age as the most heated posters here. I clearly remember a time when you got dressed up to go on a plane–that meant dresses, MaryJanes and ankle socks for the girls, button- down shirt, tucked in to nice slacks for boys. You did not speak to unknown adults until spoken to. You were expected to say please and thank you, and depending on your parents and the place you grew up, m’am and sir as well, and keep your hands to yourself.
You did NOT yell or cry in public places, no, not even when a new cereal had come out and you really wanted it. Not even when your brother pinched you–not in public. AND your parents didn’t yell at you in public, either. Who here has not had their upper arm seized by an older female relative and told in a hushed undertone to behave themselves? Miss Manners does funny riffs on this type of thing. It was a more formal time, back in the day-in all ways. Heck, we couldn’t wear jeans to our public school until 1972.
There were public manners and “private” ones, as has been described. There used to be a common courtesy of everyone was quieter in public in deference to others. That is long gone–by all. I think we are louder, ruder and more belligerent now. I also think there is less community than in prior decades which reinforces the whole “me, me, me” mentality, but I’m digressing.
This may or may not apply to those here. Certainly my experience growing up in the 60s and 70s is not true for everyone. I do tend to remember the badly behaved kids more than the well behaved-that’s human nature. But I also think that something is missing from public places today. Whether that is decorum or kindness or thoughtfulness or what, I know that something is missing. I would never want to relive the 60s and 70s, but if we (as a society) could get that public demeanor back, it would be nice.
RickJay–I can only speak for me, but I never had a pushing match, never got into a fight, never had a temper tantrum. I may well have whined, but whining by nature is quieter (as are sulks. Heh). I thought we were talking about addressing babies’ needs and loud children in public. My boys have never been fights, nor has my daughter. YMMV.
We were just at Wal*Mart this afternoon, with my Mom. One of those doting grandma trips we take now and then, when she buys them something frivolous for fun, and they point and ask for basically everything in the store.
My son had a brief meltdown when I told him that no, he wouldn’t be changing into his new outfit when we got back to Grandma’s house.
My 3-yr-old is screaming and crying in the middle of Wal*Mart.
Did I abandon my half-full shopping cart and immediately remove him from the store? No. He would’ve screamed even more hysterically all the way out the door, plus his twin sister was behaving herself.
Did I slap/spank/handle him roughly? No. It doesn’t work.
Did I try to out-shout him? No. It doesn’t work.
I stopped and removed the clothes from my cart, which sent his hysteria up a notch briefly but let him know I meant business. Making full eye contact I listened to him carefully and repeated what he was saying in order to make sure he knew I’d heard him. Then I calmly explained that his new outfit is for the party on Friday, and that I wouldn’t be purchasing it at all unless he quieted down. Which he did. He’s learning self-control.
Through his sniffles, he secured a victory for himself by declaring that after the party, he can wear his clothes again. And I repeated that yes, he needs to wait for the party for the FIRST time he can wear them, but that after that, he can wear them when he chooses.
Calm was restored, and we finished our trip. It took maybe 6 minutes, start to finish.
And out of the corner of my eye I caught a young couple giving me “the look” and a sigh of disapproval because my son was screaming. Oh, sure, they’re all brats, it’s so simple :rolleyes:.
[QUOTE=RickJay]
Show me the proof, please, not anecdotes.
If you are still insisting that most children are misbehaved, would you like to accept my bet?
I’m putting down $10,000 and giving you two to one odds that, if we were to appoint a third party to apply a mutually agreed to standard of age-appropriate behaviour to the first 1000 children to go by in a public place, that more than half will not be misbehaving. YOU claimned that most kids were not well behaved. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is, or would you want to retract that claim?
[/QUOTE]
Where did I post that MOST children are misbehaved? I didn’t. I never used the word most. You are the one using the word most and more than half and all that crap.
To address the previous post re: complimenting parents. Of course I don’t go around complimenting every single parent of every single well behaved child I see. I’m not focusing my attention on every single child or parent, well behaved or not. If I happen to notice one and I have a moment, I’ll comment on it to the parent. I’m sure I don’t see every instance of misbehaving either.
Now being that I never claimed that MOST kids were misbehaving why on earth would I make a stupid ass bet? Also, my views on behavior obviously differ from yours as do others on this planet as well. You could never get two people to agree on what constitutes good or bad behavior when the adults BEGIN at odds.
Not to mention that would be the stupidest thing in the world, bet a stranger on the internet, yea OK!!! :smack:
Off to the gym where there are no kids, well behaved or otherwise
Then to my neighbors for dinner where there is a very well behaved kid. She’s a single mom and has done a fantastic job of raising a respectful, well adjusted, courteous child. I enjoy her company very much.
[QUOTE=fessie]
Calm was restored, and we finished our trip. It took maybe 6 minutes, start to finish.
[/QUOTE]
As someone on the “quiet your goddamn kids down” side of the argument, I have to say that if you’re actually doing something about your kid’s tantrum, I’m not going to complain. Kids throw fits sometimes. It’s the parents who just learn to ignore it and let it continue that drive me up the wall.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Yes, that’s possibly the difference right there. I certainly didn’t appreciate RickJay calling me a liar, tho.
[/QUOTE]
If you weren’t on the planes “back then” how do you know how common it was outside your social circle at that period in time. I was born in 1966 and took my first plane trip in 1968. Recreational flying for the middle class in general was less common way back then, but families who did fly on vacation did so as families, they didn’t suddenly decide to become a road trip family because kids had been added.