I don’t think so, I think we look at lives through rose colored glasses. My Dad grew up in a working class neighborhood - born in 1946. Very few of his friends have “Leave It to Beaver” families and said “please” and “thank you.” My uncle is five years older, was born one class ladder step down, and certainly didn’t have that sort of experience.
What has changed is that our kids are far more scheduled and supervised than my parents ever were (and I was more scheduled and supervised than they were). So where my parents were misbehaved kids without adults around, blowing things up in the empty lot, taking their bikes down the ski jump, shoplifting, getting drunk at eight (all things I have discovered my mild mannered respectible parents did as kids), much of it was done without adults around, so they didn’t get caught.
I wonder if you look at the percentage time a kid spent misbehaving in 1953 and the amount of time they do so now if you’d discover they misbehave just as much - its just in 1953 there wasn’t an adult hovering over them all the time to notice.
Am I misinterpreting your words here, or did you not right here reject the notion that most kids are well behaved? If they’re not well behaved, then they must be ill-behaved, no?
Exactly! I don’t blame the kids - they don’t know better until they are taught better. It is the parents who don’t teach their kids how to behave in public that piss me off.
A few years ago a friend of mine and I were going to the store and had somehow gotten into a discussion of “kids these days”. How they are rude and have no manners and so on. We got to the door of the store just behind a family of about 4 - Mom and 4 kids - and the last of the children, a boy maybe eight or ten, stopped and held the door for us.
I felt about an inch tall. We of course thanked him and told his Mom what a fine young man she had raised.
Heh Heh Heh. One of the funniest things I’ve noticed about having a young one is that no matter the circumstances, no matter the cultural background, you can break out an instant conversation of empathy with another parent regarding how tough it can be - even if that father is say a Hell’s Angel bikie who you would normally NEVER talk to.
OK. Don’t believe me. My kids didn’t have temper tantrums, either. They did sulk and whine upon occasion. But on the floor, screaming tirades(which is a tt to me) because they can’t have/do X, in a store, no less? Nope. Not one.
For example, from day one, it was my policy to NEVER purchase anything from the racks near the checkout aisles. The kids knew that going in to any store, and I reinforced it. Consequently, they never badgered me for the crap that is sold in the checkout. It takes some anticipatory guidance and the ability to think ahead of small children. At times it was a complete PIA. But it was well worth it, in the end.
By no means do I take full credit for the demeanor of my kids. My husband dealt with young children very well (better than now when they’re in their teens), plus my kids for the most part are mild mannered. But I do credit some of my parenting skills for the relatively peaceful atmosphere we have. And I know that children can be consistently well behaved in public.
I also want to point out that I have NO beef with the parents who are in there, trying. Susie is kicking up a ruckus because of whatever–that’s just life. Those parents have nothing but sympathy from me. But most of the time, I don’t see the parent in there, trying. I see the parent irritated because Jr is demanding attention in an inappropriate way (babies excepted). If Susie’s parents are either giving in to the behavior or ignoring it or screaming/smacking Susie–the onus is flat out on them and I will be critical of them. I think that most posters here agree with that.
Those that throw up their hands and say “there’s nothing I can do with Susie” are usually the ones who have half-assed tried to something with Susie, have not followed through and have let convenience (I’m too tired for the bedtime fight, therefore Susie sleeps in our bed/stays up late and watches the R movie with me/gets cookies after brushing teeth or whatever) rule. Shit rolls downhill. IOW, if the parent isn’t setting limits and enforcing them, the kids will be out of control and everyone is miserable.
It is a constant battle at times. Parenting is damned hard. I understand the temptation to succumb to the battle of wills-I’ve done it myself. But overall, it pays better to stay focused and actively parent, either via example or by consistent discipline.
I ran into a delightful little girl yesterday. Sears, for some reason, decided to close one of the two ladies’ fitting rooms the same weekend they were having a 50% off sale. So I had to wait in line at the fitting room to try on my dress.
Behind me in line is a lady with several items of clothing and a perfectly adorable girl in the stroller. She had black curly hair down to her shoulders and that toothless sunny grin only little ones can have.
I spent my waiting time talking to her, complimenting her on the flowers on her shoes and the bows in her hair. While her mother beamed proudly, I showed the little girl my dress I was going to try on and she cooed and held her hand out repeatedly to touch it. I shook her hand a few times because she kept holding it out. I then checked her little finger and announced, yes, there is Daddy wrapped around it, while her mother nodded in agreement.
Hey, it passed the time and I liked interacting with her. Babies are fun to be around, especially when they’re giggly and smiling. Who knows, I may have delayed a temper tantrum a few minutes.
Crying babies don’t bother me. It’s happened to me, and it’s normal. It’s when the children are showing obvious bratty behavior and the parents are oblivious that I get annoyed.
Thanks. Ivylass–I do those sorts of things, too. It really gives me pleasure to interact with a well behaved, happy little one in stores. Mom or Dad is usually kind and friendly, and a good time is had by all. That is what I miss most in our busy, me-centered world today. Some parents glare at you for smiling at their baby. It’s understandable, but sad. I’ll bet that little girl had a good shopping experience, as did everyone around her.
I agree with you, eleanorigby about setting and enforcing limits.
What I don’t think (pause to send my twins to the corner for splashing bathwater) you’re taking into account is that ALL CHILDREN ARE NOT THE SAME. Even if you DID have 3 kids with identical temperaments, that doesn’t mean that ALL kids have that temperament.
My twins are very different in how they respond to me and to the world.
And having twins is drastically different from raising children spaced 5 years apart.
That’s unquestionably true, for two reasons, of course. One is that air travel used to be much more expensive than it is now; forty years ago, an airline ticket cost you (adjusting for inflation) two to four hundred percent more than it does now. That’s not an exaggeration; even on major, non-economy airlines, today’s tickets in real dollars are a fraction of what they were before deregulation. Air travel was difficult for the working class and so was a fancier thing to do when you could muster up the money, so you’d dress up a little for it, as it was a big deal. Airline passengers were more swung towards the upper and upper middle class. It’s now much, much cheaper, and so treated as a more routine part of life, because almost everyone can afford it now and vastly more planes are in the air and people flying from place to place. It’s like taking a really irritating bus. I don’t see that as a bad thing, personally; it’s good that almost anyone can afford to fly, because it’s generally good for everyone to be able to afford something useful, and anyway flying’s safer than driving.
The other thing, of course, is that people are generally really badly dressed these days; that filters down to kids but it’s true of adults too, I’m afraid. This is purely my opinion (the bit about airline prices is a fact) but I think the people of North America, and some parts of Europe, of this decade might actually be the worst dressed people in the history of the industralized world. Sometimes styles and fashions just aren’t good; the 70s were a really bad time for interior design, music was pretty bad in 1959, and the 1960s were not a high point for architecture. I think, a few decades from now, people will look back at the 2000s and be amazed that adults actually went out in public wearing flip flops, Crocs, and ratty T-shirts and hoodies; it’s fashionable now to wear things that in 1968 would have made people think you were homeless.
But of course, that you remember what kids wore onto airplanes back in the day sort of shoots down Carol Stream’s claim that it was “unthinkable” to take a child onto an airplane.
So let me ask straight out; are most children well behaved? Yes or no?
What the hell are you talking about? Honestly, this is the exact opposite of what I’m saying. Are you insane?
Of COURSE my kid will bother other people. Kids have ALWAYS bothered other people sometimes. Most kids are usually pretty good, but kids do from time to time get frustrated or angry or whatever and behave poorly. It’s unusual, but it happens. And given the apparently very low threshhold some people have for kids bothering them - catsix seems to feel entitled to have all children cleared from her path a mile in advance, and in another thread we had a poster say that they felt it was unfair for children to “Take up space” at professional sporting events - I’d bet dollars to donuts my kid, at 20 months old, has already bothered someone, even though we’re at least smart enough not to take her into movies. (That, I will admit, is insane behaviour.) She’s generally a really good little girl but, like all toddlers, she will cry and get upset sometimes, and while we’ll try to cvalm her down, we aren’t going to seize her and sprint to make the exit in less than 120 seconds as some would apparently have us do.
What I’m saying is that it was the same way 20 years ago. And 20 years before that. And 20 years before that. And it will always be the same way. And people will always claim kids were better behaved back in the old days, and they’ll always be wrong.
It was “unthinkable” not in the manner of being wrong to do so, but something that never even occured to a lot of people. My own parents only flew twice during my childhood, for the honeymoon, and their 10th anniversary. All other trips were by car.
For you to call my recollection of events or circumstances in my own life a LIE is positively rude, and being a jerk.
oh, I know, fessie, which is why I made a point of describing my kids’ temperments. And within their mild mannerness, they also responded to me differentl, my daughter being by far the most easy going (and who is now the most driven, intense teen-very weird!). My kids are 17, 15 and 9.
I DID get off easy, to an extent (we had other issues of control–like activities and choir. Believe me, they tried my patience, and I lost my cool many a time), but for whatever reason, we mostly enjoyed going out together for the most mundane of errands. NOW none of them want to run errands with me (hell, I don’t want to run errands!), but it was seen then as a mild treat. Maybe I just figured that if I had to have an “appendage” with me, I might as well enjoy said appendage. I don’t know. Certainly it helped that I had access to convenient sitting, as well as only working part time so that I had the luxury of time–and time to defer, if needed.
So, I had some advantages. But my point is that all parents can make the errands etc more pleasurable for all, and that all parents have such a duty and not just for the general public, but for the kids’ welfare as well.
I can’t speak for twins (although my SIL has twins from hell–because she enforces no limits, ignores good behavior and favors girls over boys in a marked manner–to the point where she took her two girls to Disneyworld, but left the boy at home-yes, you read that right. She has a girl and boy as twins and one older daughter. I pity her kids).
My sisters were twins (they have both passed away), but when all 5 of us would go out (my parents had 5 kids in 5 years), none of us acted out. I know I sound like a smug, superior jerk for saying that, but we didn’t. Not that we didn’t have fights at home-sibs being what they are. I suppose I learned by example from my parents in this aspect (in others they were horrible parents, but that’s another thread) and passed it along to my kids.
Another thing that bears mentioning. I (and I think most parents, or at least most mothers) can identify a pain cry from an attention whiney cry in a small child. I am appalled at the number of parents I see in Target or wherever who don’t bother to even assess their kids for something possibly wrong. I’ve even seen that dreadful, “I’ll give you something to cry about!” remark, followed by a smack. This is just plain BAD parenting–I don’t care the “reason”. That is simply unacceptable parenting. To get all preachy, you reap what you sow. (this is not directed at you,** fessie**, I’m just venting.)
And I apologize to Catitude–I meant to say thanks when I quoted those nice remarks.
Which is fine if you’re at home, but quite rude when you’re out in public. I’m a mom with two kids. One is 27 and recently made me a grandma, and the other is just a few months shy of 16.
I love kids, what I dislike are parents who refuse to parent. YOU (and I include myself in this, when mine were small), had those kids, therefore it is your responsibility (collective you, not you the OP or random parent in here), to care for them. And “oh, that was just a bored cry, no interference necessary” is just inconsiderate BS when one is out among one’s fellow humans.
Like the OP I witnessed something similar a few days ago. A mom in the bowling alley on base was playing pool while her baby cried in the stroller. (we contractors often stop by to use the bathroom or buy lunch there). I walked by to the ladies bathroom and she was shooting pool while the baby cried. I finished in the bathroom, washed my hands and walked back out to the food court area to p/u my food and the mom was still playing pool while the baby cried.
This is a whole 'nother thread of course, but aside from the rudeness to other people out in public, it’s my NOT so humble opinion that one can’t “spoil” a baby, and that giving them attention when they’re crying isn’t ever the wrong thing to do.
McDs, Chuckies etc are perfectly good training grounds for learning manners. Just because some ill-mannered parents use those places as carte blanche to let their little hellions run free doesn’t mean that’s the sole intent of that sort of restuarant.
And I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say that kids can “only” go to those places ever until they’re “perfect”. However, if a parent is at a nicer place and the kid acts up, then it’s time to take them OUT of there and go back to lesson 4 or 5 of “appropriate behaviour in public places”.
Too many oversensitive parents in this thread are taking the idea that “children should be parented appropriately and taught manners/parents should PARENT” to mean that kids are NEVER allowed out and that none of us will tolerate so much as an unauthorized peep, and that kids have to behave perfectly or else!
No one is saying that. Those of us who are also parents have been there, the difference between us, and the lady in the OP, and parents in other examples of inconsiderate parents, is that we (like the OP requested) “DO something”.
And someone else said something to the effect of “well yeah, but if shopping is what the kid DOESN’T want to do, and you take him out of there, you’ve just rewarded him” WRONG. That’s where you’ve got to be smarter and use those little psychological tools. It only took a few nights of peanut butter sandwiches on white bread (YUK, no one in my family can stand white bread), and you ever so sweetly saying “well I’m so sorry sweetie, but you didn’t want to be in the store, so we had to leave”, and possibly mentioning “gosh too bad, we could have had mom’s fried chicken tonight” and that’ll cure that sort of thing.
The “cult of child worship” has really gotten out of hand. If you are the sort of parent who believes that screaming and running about like little hellions is normal and should be tolerated by the public in general, and that it’s merely "kids being kids, THAT is the sort of thing those in this thread are saying is wrong. Not a few fusses, or a bratty act and then appropriate parental correction.
Good gracious, you’ve really got yourself in a fair lather haven’t you?
She said parents of WELL behaved kids, not “normally behaved”. And she said When she notices them. I know exactly what she’s talking about. If I see a well behaved kid, one who has obviously been taught good manners, I also go out of my way to compliment the parent.
A woman had a little girl, (maybe 7?), walking beside the grocery cart, and a toddler in the seat of the grocery cart. As I approached, the little girl, on her own initiative, moved behind her mother (rather than the obliviousness shown by a lot of kids who move forward while looking back, NOT that that is “ill-behaved”, just normal). The mom said “good job” to her daughter, and I complimented the mom on her well behaved children, the toddler was also quiet and absorbed with looking around her, not in demanding things and yelling.
Now, as you so ferociously pointed out in your post, I’m sure there were lots of other normally, or even well-behaved kids, in the store, some I even saw, none on the same isle, or in the same circumstances that allowed me to personally say “thanks for a parenting job well-done” as I was trying to get shopping done and get home to feed my own garbage disposal, errr, teenaged boy.
I’m reasonably sure that that is what Cattitude was talking about. You seem to be taking this VERY personally that you start foaming at the mouth and getting all sarcastic and insisting that she’s not being truthful.
Unless of course you consider it a reasonable or normal act for a person to hunt down every parent with kids occupying the same store as oneself, observing their behaviour to make sure it’s well-behaved, and then running up and complimenting them.
