If you're such wonderful Christians, why don't you act like it?

I hear you, summerbreeze! What gets me especially are the stories that go something like, “I couldn’t pay my rent then found an envelope with $500 lying on the ground! An angel gave it to me!”

Yeah. Right after that angel pulled it out of someone else’s pocket, I’m sure.

Tell me, if each time you find a convenient parking place it’s due to an angel, what about when you trip and break your arm? Where the heck was your angel then?

Oh, I know: you must have had TWO devils assigned to you that day. While one wrestled your angel aside, the other crouched down and tripped you. Silly me for not realizing that sooner.

And there’s always, “The devil made me do it!” (Flip Wilson, may he rest in peace. Gone but not forgotten.)

Wondering if we’ve become such rotten people we can’t believe people can perform good, heroic, noble acts? And if we’re so superstitious we can’t accept simple coincidence?

And – back to the OP – if we feel a societal pressure to send “Christian” greeting cards when we have no true Christian values?

My least-favorite customer buys Christian cards by the bagful. He responds to “How are you?” with “I’m saved by Jesus, who died on the cross for my sins, thank you, young lady.”

I am not young and don’t think I was ever a lady. He greets every older woman this way. Spoke to a married, elderly couple in the store the other day: “Young man, you have a beautiful wife!”

Maybe he’s just simple-minded. Or maybe he’s incorrect about Jesus and is actually bound for hell.

The problem with these people isn’t that they’re Christians. The trouble is that they’re narcissists.

The link talks about an expectation “to be recognized as superior” and a “sense of entitlement.” And being righteous and beloved by God makes a great justification for feeling oneself to be superior and entitled.

I think that’s why we’re creeped out by people who take every opportunity to advertise their religion so blatantly. They do it so that everybody can understand why they ought to be treated like royalty.

If it wasn’t religion, these jerks would find some other way of explaining why they were so much better than everyone else. They might fixate on their social status, politics, career or, worst of all, race to explain why everybody else ought to admire them.

Summing up my armchair psychology: Christianity didn’t make them jerks. They were jerks in the first place.

The problem with these people isn’t that they’re Christians. The trouble is that they’re narcissists.

The link talks about an expectation “to be recognized as superior” and a “sense of entitlement.” And being righteous and beloved by God makes a great justification for feeling oneself to be superior and entitled.

I think that’s why we’re creeped out by people who take every opportunity to advertise their religion so blatantly. They do it so that everybody can understand why they ought to be treated like royalty.

If it wasn’t religion, these jerks would find some other way of explaining why they were so much better than everyone else. They might fixate on their social status, politics, career or, worst of all, race to explain why everybody else ought to admire them.

Summing up my armchair psychology: Christianity didn’t make them jerks. They were jerks in the first place.

Well, yes, perhaps, but that’s the neat thing about (insert religion of choice here).

It gives you a RIGHT to be a jerk, because you have chosen the one true (deity), and are therefore licensed to lord it all over the poor schmoes who haven’t, and are therefore going to (unpleasant afterlife scenario).

In the case of your Ironclad Christians, they just have to make sure you know they love you, even if you ARE going to Hell…

It is very simple- when you are a racist, you notice that Black dudes are 'rude, obnoxious, thieves, etc". Whenever they do something bad, that gets noticed, and put into your “black people are just plain bad” section of your twisted racist mind. Good things are ignored. Bad things by other races are explained away. If you are a religious intolerant, you notice that same thing about whatever faith you despise. For instance, if you are anti-semitic you notice antisocial behaviour about Jews, or attribute such behavior to those you THINK are Jewish. When “they” act normal or nice, this is ignored. If you take any group, and tabulate only the bad things, and ignore the good things, you can get a pretty good hate going on. Waht’s worse, you begin to assume that dudes are “jewish” because of certain behaviors. To take an example- our Op here, who seems to be a typical religous intolerant, has assumed that customers buying “christian” greeting cards are Christians. I would nto be considered a “christian” by most- yet I have bought such cards for Christian freinds of mine. Actually, I LOOK Jewish (likely have some jewish heritage), and I also have bought some Jewish greeting cards for freinds of mine, including cards & “gelt” for a Bar Mitzva. If I had acted rude- the cashier would of course assume (if she/he was a religous intolerant) that I was Jewish and that “all THOSE people” act like that. Same thing for those who hate Gays- they assume that dudes are gay who aren’t ( “they act swishy” :rolleyes: ), and of course only remember those who “act up”.

The Op only shows that is is very easy to be a racist or religous intolerant, and yet not admit it. It shows only that our OP thinks badly of “them” (“them” being Christians) and is indulging in a typical intolerant thought pattern. She really has no idea of the faith of those buying cards, or disturbing the cards, and of course will assume the worst. If you took her post, and substitude “gay” or “black” for “christian” as appropriate, you’d all spot the intolerance in a second, and call her out on it.

The simple fact of the case is that my store carries cards designed for Blacks (Mahoghany), cards designed for Jewish holy days and celebrations, “partner” cards for gays, and so on. These cards stay reasonably neat and the people who purchase them are reasonably pleasant. It’s the Christian Expressions cards that end up all over the store, and the people who buy these cards who are ruder and more unpleasant to deal with than other customers. Somewhere I mentioned that this came up at a store meeting because all of us (a rabbi’s wife, several agnostics, I (a church-going Presbyterian), a Baptist deacon, and others) have noticed this.

thatDDperson says the stores where she’s worked watched the “Christian” merchandise more closely than other stock because of the thefts and damage.

The overwhelming majority of my customers are nice people. I do wonder why so many who choose to identify themselves as Christians behave badly.

Are you commonly in the practice of putting your Bibles on display?:wink: Furthermore, are these Bibles means purely for study difficult to open in that “new book” way? Because the people I’m talking about…, well, it’s not always the case, but you get my drift.

A friend got married a few months ago and got … well, let’s just say it’s “Thomas Kincaide meets The Bible”. ::insert image of brick house with lavish chimney and flowing stream under a picturesque bridge.:: This place was being used to pictorially explicate some sort of Bible story. I found it intensely amusing.

I’ll stop now so Guin and jayjay don’t hurl:D

Oh, DrDeth, I think you might be off-base here.

I’m still wondering why the super-devout Christians would willingly vandalize the Christian greeting cards they don’t want. What’s the motive?

I believe, rjung, these are people who want to be thought of as good Christians by the people who get their cards, but they actually don’t give a shit about other people, or property that doesn’t belong to them. So, instead of putting cards back where they belong if they decide not to buy them, they cram them anywhere in the store.

If you haven’t seen these cards – they’re not the kind of thing a non-Christian would choose to send a Christian friend – not a Merry Christmas with Santas or a Happy Easter with bunnies kind of card at all. They admonish the recipient to walk in the path of Jesus; they assure mothers of dead babies that Jesus is cradling their children; they’re the kind of cards a sincere but somewhat fundamentalist Christian would send, or someone who wants to appear to be very pious.

I mentioned my co-worker, the rabbi’s wife, who is also a close friend. She jokes that no one ever guesses she’s Jewish from her name or her appearance. She says she dreads selling these cards because so often the person buying them delivers a sermon along with their their VISA card.

Our Black customers don’t exhort us to join the NAACP; I’ve never had a Jewish customer urge me to come to temple; I’m gay, and when I buy a “partner” card, I don’t tell the female clerk she ought to try sex with girls.
And when I pick up something in a store but decide against buying it, I put it back where it belongs, or give it to a salesperson to put back.

And DrDeth is definitely off-base.

punha, what’s wrong with a coffee table Bible? I love coffee table books.

I don’t think I am. I recount the story here of a waitress I knew, that told me “Jews are such bad tippers”. I asked her why she thought so, and she went thru this story of a picky customer who ordered a lot of food & wine ofr himself & his wife/girlfreind, and tipped her a big $1 (20% would have been over $20). I asked her how she knew he was Jewish, and she said “because he looked Jewish, and said ’ I don’t eat pork’ when I mentioned the special”. Now, is it true Jews don’t eat pork? No- many Jews who are not devout don’t keep Kosher. Do Devout Jews all eschew pork? No- Reform Jews will eat pork. So what does that leave? Devout Conservative or Orthodox Jews- and from what I know (some one correct me if I am wrong) a devout Orthodox Jew would not eat in a non-kosher restaurant, esp one which served traif. That leaves a subset. But is it only Jews who don’t eat pork? No- Muslims, some Buddists, and a few odd Xtian sects don’t. Not to mention Vegetarians, and those whose doctors have told them to lay off such meat for their health. And of course- many middle easterners are Muslims. So- all that proved it that she used that story to prove to herself that “Jews are cheap”- even though she had no good evidence he was a Jew.

How does Summerwind know that the rude customers are Devout Christians? Becuase they buy Xtian cards? I am not a devout Xtian by any means, yet I have bought some for my devout Xtian freinds- and I got one from some Jewish freinds of mine when my father died (they knew I was technically a goyim, so they thought it was the right thing. The thought was what counted). THEY certainly weren’t Christian. No, it seems Summerwind has decided that “Christians are rude”, and when a customer is rude- he must be a Christian (did you ask? Was he a Minister or Preist in frock & collar? :rolleyes: ) When someone does identify themself as Xtian, then everything they do is suspect- bad things are remembered, good things are forgotten. And, as was just said- why should the Christians mess up their card section? Makes no sense.

If you don’t believe me, take her stories, and change “Christian” to “Jewish” or “Muslim”. Suddenly, they sound mighty fishy.

This is they way an intolerant persons mind works- when they don’t want to admit to themself they ARE being racist or intolerant. A few decades ago- how many times did we hear “I’m not racist- it’s only the BAD Niggers I don’t like”.

“De-nile” is not just a river in Egypt, you know.

I don’t think that summerdance is specifically picking on all Christians.

I think it’s just more to say, “Wow, these people are supposed to be Christians-and look at how they act!”

When I have seen people such as summerwind describes - I always wonder how they can not see that their own behavior is not Christian and I get an urge to ask them how they can reconcile their faith and their actions. I do not judge all Xtians to be like those ones I once waited on, an analogy that would be more fitting to me than Dr. Deth’s is if a Jewish person was to join the Nazi party as well becoming a member of the B’Nai B’Rith.

No onto summerwind’s other question, the temptation to confront these hypocrites … I really don’t think it would help, but I sometimes have a burning temptation to stop into the coffee shop I once worked at on a Sunday with a personal note to each of these people. But when I was a waitress there - I knew all they would have done is get me fired if I had ever confronted them on their behavior. If these people didn’t not have enough scruples to see that their faith & actions were irreconcilable, then I am sure they would never understand it even if you pointed it out.

Apropos of nothing, but my little time working in retail netted me two observations that everyone can extrapolate and apply for there worth:

1.) I absolutely HATED working on Sunday afternoons. I will make no guess to the type of people these customers were, but will say that they usually came in dressed up (IE: dress or skirts for the females and, typically, either a suit or slack and tie for the males) with incredibly dour looks on their faces. They were surly, abrupt (I’ll stop just short of rude) and usually very condescending to the staff helping them. They also tended to buy religious items, but sense I didn’t work mainly on the floor, I cannot comment on whether or not they left that section in disarray or not. I can only say the above and that these folks seemed even more demanding than those not able to rent their favorite movie on Friday night.

2.) Almost all of these customers, when charging, more than likely had a Mastercard over any other plastic.

I’ll let you all draw your own conclusions from that. However, I’m glad I’m not in retail anymore and even more thrilled that I’ll never have to deal with another after Church crowd (whether that’s where they’re from or not) again.

Guinastasia is right, even tho she has my name slightly askew.

I’ve pointed out, DrDeth, that I’m a Presbyterian, and, last time I looked, we were still Christians. Enough dopers have told of their similar experiences that I guess we’re all just a big happy bunch of bigots.

No, the problem is they are hypocrites.

No, it doesn’t. At least for Christians, since Christ himself admonished & warned those who engage in acts of self-righteousness:

Matt 6:5 (Amplified) "Also when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by people. Truly I tell you, they have their reward in full.

To me, that last sentence is the most dire warning against using the Word of God as a cloak of self-righteousness. No reward for their piety will greet them in the hereafter, since they counted it more important to be rewarded by the admiration of their peers, not realizing the admiration was based on their outward display, whereas God will admire them for their inward display:

Matt 23:25-28 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but within they are full of extortion (prey, spoil, plunder) and grasping self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything impure. Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity.

Sounds more than a little like Sam’s uncle, no?

If you say that “Jews are cheap” or “Christians are rude” or “Mulsims are ignorant”- then indeed- you are a bigot. That’s the very definition of the word.

Certainly there are “cheap Jews”, “rude Christians” and “ignorant Muslims”- because there are cheap PEOPLE, rude PEOPLE, and IGNORANT people (and shhh, I’ll tell you a secret why this is so- Jews, Christians & Muslims ARE People). But being a Jew, Christian or Muslim does not make it any more likely that you are any of those things.

Now, if what had been pointed out is that some Christians make a point of thinking they are better than others (and so do some Jews, and some Muslims) and that- no- they are NOT any better than anyone else- that making those that think they are better hypocrites- then yes- you have a point. Jews, Christians or Muslims aren’t any BETTER than “normal” people- becuase they ARE People. Those that act superiour without being superiour are indeed- hypocrites- and there are plently of Christian hypocrites (and Jewish, and Muslim, and…). Now this being the good ol’ USofA, you are far more likley to run into a Christian hypocrite (or a rude person who happens to be Christian) than you are a Jewish or Muslim hypocrite.

If you take any racial, ethnic or religous group- and think that in general the members of the group are either better or worse than any other group- then you are a bigot. Look it up.

We are now in the fucking 21st century, dudes- don’t you think it is time that we can learn to judge People as individuals instead of by their race/ethnicity/faith ?

Sorry about that-I’ve been reading a lot of Mercedes Lackey books lately and one of them had a character named Summerdance. It probably caused a brain glitch.

I’d like to put my two cents in here and DrDeth, this is partly a response to some of the things you’ve said in this thread.

I worked in the hotel industry here in Tulsa for several years. For a while, I worked as a room service waiter and after that, I did night audit and front desk work (at a different hotel). Every summer, Kenneth Hagin, a local televangelist, has a conference in Tulsa called CampMeeting that Christians (one can safely assume) come from all over the world to attend. Ask anyone in the Tulsa hotel industry about them and you’ll hear all sorts of horror stories. Actually, as DrDeth might point out, asking them specifically about CampMeeting attendees might seem like you were leading them to say derogatory things. Better yet, ask them to tell you, just off the top of their heads, about the rudest customer or group of customers they’ve dealt with. I’m sure you’d hear stories about various non-CampMeeting assholes, but I would be willing to bet that you’d hear a disproportionately large number of stories about CampMeeting attendees. To be fair, I’m sure there are plenty of attendees who would never dream of belittling an employee or otherwise behaving in a “non-Christian” way toward hotel or restaurant employees, but they aren’t the ones that stick in your mind. I know, you’re thinking, “Well, you’re just remembering the ones who were nasty, not the majority who were nice.” That’s true, but I’m also saying that even when you compare CampMeeting assholes to regular assholes, the ones at CampMeeting were worse. They never tipped room service waiters. When I was in room service, several of our employees reported being verbally abused when they told these people that room service was not included in the package price they paid for the conference and that, yes, they would actually have to pay for that steak if they wanted it. When I was working front desk at another hotel, one of our best front desk agents, a girl who could usually deal well with the nastiest of customers (and would often have them smiling and apologizing before they walked away from the front desk) was actually reduced to tears. By a minister’s wife.

My best friend worked at the local Macaroni Grill for years. He told me that although Sunday had the busiest lunch shift, it was also the worst lunch shift in terms of tips. That’s a pretty big coincidence to be just a coincidence. He said when large church groups would come in after church, the servers would all pray (ironic, huh?) for the groups not to be put in their sections because that was almost a guarantee that they’d receive shitty tips. Sometimes they’d spend an hour and a half or two hours serving a lingering group of ten or more only to receive no tip at all. Were there other people on other days who didn’t tip or tip well? Sure. Were there church groups and church goers who did? Absolutely. But there was a very strong correlation between the church goers and lousy tips. So strong in fact, that even the more devout members of the staff would do everything they could to avoid these people, having learned to accept the correlation in spite of their faith.

Again, I’m not saying that all Christians behave this way, nor am I suggesting that plenty of non-Christians don’t. I’m not a bigot who makes blanket statements about people of a particular group, DrDeth. I despise people who make assumptions about someone based on their ethnicity, gender, religion, etc. But it’s not bigoted to say that there are correlations between certain groups of people and certain behaviors. And when you attend a Christian conference, wear Christian slogans on clothing, have a WWJD bumper sticker or some such thing on your car (or carry and display any WWJD merchandise), you assume responsibility for being an ambassador and representative of your faith. Whether or not you intend to.