Need to proofread:
Apparently (according to the news) in the last Presidential primary (1996?) Pat got all these votes in West Palm Beach, because of his relative strongly pushing for him.
My mother is still on the telephone. I made her give me a statement (but she doesn’t know I’m posting it here). I’ve mentioned my parents in the past, so just to clarify, this the my mother who lives in Florida. Are you ready for this?
"I got the first ballot and coudn’t figure out how to use it properly, and after spending a minute trying to figure it out, I called an official over and requested a second ballot… At which time the monitor gave me a second ballot and showed me how to insert it between the two red knobs. I was then able to use the device. I looked on the left side of the page, saw Bush, then Gore, and then used the device to punch the hole in the second slot. I didn’t even notice Buchanan on the right side."
Bye, Mom. Hanging up. Fuuuuuuuck. Shit. Fuck! FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK! Shitfuckgoddamnmotherfuckinghell!!!
MOM! YOU FUCKING IDIOT! Oh, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. I’m gotta get out of here and crawl into a bottle of something high-proof. If anyone finds out if there’s anything my nitwit, can’t take directions, election-losing brain dead wretch of a mom can do, will you please post it here?
So the elderly shouldn’t be allowed to vote?
If it’s any consololation, let me relate the primary election fiasco that happened earlier this year in Hawaii.
The ballots had the presidential, house, and senate choices for about five different parties. At the satellite city hall where I made my absentee vote, the floor person mentioned TWICE in a span of a little under half an hour to vote for only one of the parties. Right on the ballot, it said to vote for only one party.
Over four thousand ballots ended up being spoiled because the voter chose more than one party. 
There’s just no accounting for some people. Yes, I have bad eyesight too…that’s why I wear glasses. Yes, I know the ballot may have been poorly designed…that’s why I read the instructios and review the ballot carefully before making my choice. If I’m still confused, I ask for help (if someone doesn’t offer to help right away) before voting.
Huh…on the plus side, I now understand where Bush probably got his support from. 
FWIW…
Has anyone looked at party registration or past voting habits of this distric compared to the rest of the states? Here is an article from Newsmax.com that claims the vote is well within expectations:
Newsmax
And about past voting habits…
Voting Records
Perot got 30,739 votes in this county, the 3rd highest total in the state. That link is to a chart, so you can look at ALL the votes in the state for FL.
FWIW…
Has anyone looked at party registration or past voting habits of this distric compared to the rest of the states? Here is an article from Newsmax.com that claims the vote is well within expectations:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/8/161334.shtml
And about past voting habits…
http://doe.dos.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/genelec.exe?elecdate=11/5/96&mode=D&frm=N&race=PRE&district=&group=
Perot got 30,739 votes in this county, the 3rd highest total in the state. That link is to a chart, so you can look at ALL the votes in the state for FL.
(reposted with the links visible, sorry about the previous post)
The ballot is mildly confusing. However; the responsibility to make sure you are voting for the person you want to vote for, once you get into that voter booth, is the voter’s.
The Democrats claim is that thousands of people were so confused by this reasonably common ballot. Yet, according to West Palm Beach County’s DEMOCRATIC election official, no one raised any concerns or asked any questions about it. And sample ballots were made available.
All laws were followed. Should the Republicans be punished because people are too stupid or too unfocused to read a ballot and follow directions? Literacy has been struck down as an election requirement.
Gadarene:
I don’t believe that for a minute.
That claim surely wasn’t politically motivated, either. Just like the Democratic Congressman down there who raised this whole stink, when he said “hundreds of people” were calling him up, claiming they were confused into voting for Buchanan. So, nobody said a word to any election officials at the polls, according to the county’s head of elections (again, a DEMOCRAT); but hundreds, maybe thousands, of residents contacted their Congressman?
:rolleyes:
So, what’s the solution, then? Does anybody honestly think a re-vote in West Palm Beach County, or the entire state of Florida, would be fair at this point? Give me a break. I didn’t get to vote knowing exactly what the stakes of my vote would mean. Why should Gore supporters (and, no doubt, Nader converters) get to in Florida?
And you don’t think idiots or the careless made mistakes on their ballots in every county in every state in this country? But we’re going to single out these ones in Florida as special? Why?
I’m going to go out on a limb here, and give the Democrats and Al Gore the benefit of the doubt. When they really think through this whole scenario, they will simply accept the final election results in Florida, and thus the outcome of the election.
The ballot is mildly confusing. However; the responsibility to make sure you are voting for the person you want to vote for, once you get into that voter booth, is the voter’s.
The Democrats claim is that thousands of people were so confused by this reasonably common ballot. Yet, according to West Palm Beach County’s DEMOCRATIC election official, no one raised any concerns or asked any questions about it. And sample ballots were made available.
All laws were followed. Should the Republicans be punished because people are too stupid or too unfocused to read a ballot and follow directions? Literacy has been struck down as an election requirement.
Gadarene:
I don’t believe that for a minute.
That claim surely wasn’t politically motivated, either. Just like the Democratic Congressman down there who raised this whole stink, when he said “hundreds of people” were calling him up, claiming they were confused into voting for Buchanan. So, nobody said a word to any election officials at the polls, according to the county’s head of elections (again, a DEMOCRAT); but hundreds, maybe thousands, of residents contacted their Congressman?
:rolleyes:
So, what’s the solution, then? Does anybody honestly think a re-vote in West Palm Beach County, or the entire state of Florida, would be fair at this point? Give me a break. I didn’t get to vote knowing exactly what the stakes of my vote would mean. Why should Gore supporters (and, no doubt, Nader converters) get to in Florida?
And you don’t think idiots or the careless made mistakes on their ballots in every county in every state in this country? But we’re going to single out these ones in Florida as special? Why?
I’m going to go out on a limb here, and give the Democrats and Al Gore the benefit of the doubt. When they really think through this whole scenario, they will simply accept the final election results in Florida, and thus the outcome of the election.
Freedom:
Newsmax.com characterized the Independent party as Florida’s Reform party. This is puzzling, since google.com’s cache of Florida’s election site lists the Reform Party and Independent Party separately. (I can’t link to the Florida site now, though -not surprisingly, the server is unavailable).
So it’s not clear to me whether Independent Party members have an affinity with Buchanan.
2) The 2nd link is clearer. It shows the 1996 Palm Beach Ballot with a 7.7% vote share for Perot. That share puts it at number 61 out of all 67 counties in Florida. That makes it one of the least likely counties to vote Reform. Total votes are higher, because Palm Beach county has a population that is among the highest in Florida, judging from their total vote.
Some comparisons:
rank …County …Perot share
1 …Franklin …19.2%
…
61 …Palm Beach …7.7%
62 …Broward …7.7%
67 …Dade …4.5%
-
Newsmax.com calls the Independent party, “Florida’s Reform Party”. Strictly speaking, that appears to be false. Whether it’s true in a rough sense isn’t clear. I must note, though, that I’m reluctant to accept NewsMax’s characterizations, as the (hilarious) titles of their articles indicate to me that they have a (right-wing) ax to grind.
(eg. “Now Gore Wants ‘Rule of Law’” ; “Confused Florida Liberals Fear They Voted for Buchanan” ; “Dem Dirty Trick Gives Gore Popular Vote”)
BTW: What’s the lefty analogue to this site?
Finally:
I confess some sympathy for those careless enough to screw up their ballot. It’s possible to be reasonably intelligent, open-minded and a fine citizen and still make bone-headed mistakes from time to time. (I myself have apparently never mastered alternative-side-of-the-street-parking with complete reliability.)
Milo said
No, I don’t think a re-vote would be fair.
But nor is it fair to present an poorly designed ballot that is likely to result in a nontrivial share of the electorate casting their votes in unintended ways. And if it’s true that an unusual proportion voted for 2 Presidential candidates (a big if, I’d like to see this claim substantiated), then I think a voting irregularity has been established.
In the end, I suspect that the courts will simply have to decide among a set of non-optimal alternatives.
I don’t know whether to believe this specific claim, but I certainly can’t rule it out as impossible. We’d all like to think that the workers in the polls all thoroughly know the rules and procedures, but sadly it’s frequently not the case.
I’m thinking back to California’s primary elections this year. It was horribly designed to begin with, but problems were magnified by poll workers who didn’t understand how things worked.
California had gone back to a “closed” primary - only Democrats can vote in the Democratic primary, etc. Fine. Different color ballots existed for each party (plus another for No Affiliation). Voters were to be given the color corresponding to the party in which they were registered. Again, fine.
Thing was, all names were on all ballots. A Democrat could vote for George W. Bush. However, this vote would not be counted in the primary election. People who voted outside their party had their ballots tossed in the trash, basically. This was pretty screwed up, and I have no idea how this “solution” to the closed primary problem came about. Lots of voters didn’t really understand how this worked.
Unfortunately, neither did many poll workers. There were many reports of (for example) Republicans being handed Democratic ballots, protesting, and being told by the worker that “it doesn’t matter.” The hell it didn’t!
My only point: I don’t find it at all unbelieveable that poll workers would/could do something so clearly illegal. Not out of malice, but simple ignorance of the rules.
Yes. Any old reason will do.
My sister is legally blind. She is so blind that she has to get REALLY close to anything to read it. (She looks like she is “smelling” everything she is reading.) She has voted with these “butterfly” type ballots before. This ballot design is not unfamiliar, at least where we come from. She has not had a problem. She just has to pay attention and LOOK.
If we are going to second-guess every single vote cast, because someone MIGHT have been lame-brained or wasn’t paying attention, no election will ever be resolved.
Hey, Milo. According to Palm Beach’s Democratic election official, many people raised concerns and asked questions about it. I’ve been posting the damned Sun-Sentinel link all over the place 'round here; you might wanna actually, I don’t know, read it or something.
I, too, have trouble with the notion of completely invalidating the vote in Palm Beach County because of this. Some responsibility has to lie with the voter to make sure that they’re voting correctly. (I feel obligated to point out that I voted for Bush. I cannot claim to be unbiased.)
Milossarian is correct in pointing out that nobody had any problems with this thing beforehand, when something could have been done about it. In the article that Gadarene linked to, Theresa LePore (the Supervisor of Elections in Palm Beach County) is quoted as saying “We sent out sample ballots to all registered voters, and no one said a word.”
I believe that this confusion took the election authorities completely by surprise. Apparently, the reason that they put the candidate listings on both pages (a so-called “butterfly ballot”) was so that a bigger font could be used. Why? To make it easier to read. Irony? 
In 1974 during a Republican primary there was a dispute over the design of the ballot. That case was taken to court and the election was validated on appeal. Here is an excerpt form Nelson v Robinson:
"Keeping in mind that we are talking about a claim made after an election, and not one which may have been enforceable before, if a candidate appears on the ballot in such a position that he can be found by the voters upon a responsible study of the ballot, then such voters have been afforded a full, free and open opportunity to make their choice for or against that particular candidate; and the candidate himself has no constitutional right to a particular spot on the ballot which might make the voters’ choice easier. His constitutional rights in the matter end when his name is placed on the ballot. Thereafter, the right is in the voters to have a fair and reasonable opportunity to find it; and as to this, it has been observed that the constitution intended that a voter search for the name of the candidate of his choice and to express his of the candidate of his choice without regard to others on the ballot. Furthermore, it assumes his ability to read and his intelligence to indicate his choice with the degree of care commensurate with the solemnity of the occasion.
"
I don’t care who designed the ballot.
It dosen’t matter if the problem is the result of malice or incompetence. People should get to vote for the person of their choice. The state has a responsibilty to allow all eligable voters to vote for their candiate.
If the state for any reason does something that effectivally removes a persons right to vote those people can sue on the grounds of their civil rights being abused.
The problem is how can you “prove” that a ballot was punched incorrectly? How did the voter know that their ballot registered incorrectly after it was put in the box? Did the box announce who the person voted for? How do they know they punched the wrong after the ballot is in the box? Lets say that after a person voted they looked at the ballot and said I punched that hole for Gore and someone said ‘Wrong hole buddy’. How can you go into the box and pull back that particular ballot and fix it. In MO there were not enough voting booths and many people who got to the polls on time were not allowed to vote because the poll closeing time came while they were in line.
But IQ tests should not be even considered. Don’t you remember about litercacy test?
Just a little fuel on the fire: this comes from today’s Newsday (emphasis mine):
First things first: Who told you to vote without your glasses, asshole? Hail Ants, this guy speaks quite eloquently for your original post.
Second: He doesn’t know he voted wrong, he thinks he voted wrong. This uncertainty appears to be a trend in articles on this subject…looks to me like a lot of doubt created by after-the-fact second-guessing rather than genuine confusion during the vote.
How many times can I say “amen” to that? Thanks puddleglum for posting a voice of reason.
I’m sick to death of excuses by lazy voters or voters “in a rush” who are trying to wriggle out of personal responsibility and accountability for their own actions.
I voted libertarian so I couldn’t care less who actually wins.
Hmmmmm…I think I won the lottery last week. Because the numbers were so small that I think I actually picked the 6 correct numbers…I better call my Senator and demand a redo for my lotto form!!!
This ballot is not the least bit confusing. A fucking arrow runs from the candidates name to the corresponding punch hole. How can anybody be confused by that?
If they are, they are indeed too stupid to understand political questions and I would prefer they don’t vote.
Far too many people vote anyway. Despite ignorance of the candidates and the issues, they vote out of a misguided sense of civic duty.
Dont encourage uninformed people to vote. Encourage them to stay home.
merckx