I see no winners in this whole situation. Gore wins on a revote and we have four years of Republicans crying about how the Dems stole the election. The vote stands and Bush supporters have four years of Democrats saying that the public choice was obviously Gore, both popularly and electorally. Either way, it looks like a very weak presidency in terms of popular support. If Gore pulled off a victory strictly on the recount, that might be enough to silence everyone, but I think it very unlikely. 793 votes difference at the moment, without overseas absentee ballots. I don’t think Gore will close that gap, although to be honest I didn’t think he’d close the gap as much as he has, so who knows?
Agreed. This is going to be the test of GWB’s repeated claims to be able to work across party lines.
Although I was being a tad glib in my OP, I still stand by the idea that those ballots were just not that confusing. God help these people if they had to use a voting machine.
On a second note, there will not and can not be a re-vote. There is no way to distinguish between people who really did make a mistake and people who would now, in hindsight, want to change their vote.
And on a third note, this is America in the year 2000. Why do some districts still force their voters to stuff a piece of paper into a padlocked wooden box?!
How much would you be willing to bet that, if they passed a questionaire around asking who thinks they voted wrong, that more than 50,000 people (representing 19,000 disregarded ballots) would say, “Hey! I voted for the wrong guy!”
Sortof like the 200,000 people who inevitably claim to have been at the stadium the day of the 9th inning home run that won the Series…
Moderators, and Posters - there is FAR too much profanity and insults in this thread.
Next- we do not call the "less abled’- “stupid”. An elderly person, who is confused, and has poor vision is NOT stupid, or an idiot. Anyone who calls these poor folks such is a bigot.
This should be the wake up call to everyone. The only sure way to get machine counting and 100% accurate voting is with #2 pencil scantron ballots*. Filling in the WHOLE wrong circle shouldn’t be an often occourance, but if so then they can just simply grab a new one. Hell even have the gov’t do as our 4th grade teachers did, checking for stray marks and filled in bubbles.
I forgot to add my star:
*There may be a black/blue pencil ballot system, I’m not sure but use that too if possible.
My sister is legally blind. She has used these Butterfly ballots to vote. She just gets her face REALLY close to the ballot, so she can see it. She takes her time when voting, because of this. Every voter needs to do this, especially if their eyesight is less than stellar. That is their responsibility.
I have several elderly relatives. When they do something stupid, I’m gonna call it stupid. I cannot fathom anyone punching TWO names on a ballot and still thinking it’s OK. That is STUPID, and I have no sympathy for it. I also think that someone who has poor vision needs to compensate for it, especially when they are doing something as serious as voting. My legally blind sister knows this. I see no excuse for not being extra careful when you KNOW your eyesight is a little weak.
The problem is not that there was an opportunity (of whatever arguable strength or weakness) for confusion on the Palm Beach ballot. The problem is that, due to the ballot design, it affected the candidates unequally.
Go back and look at the stupid picture. You may agree or disagree that it wouldn’t be that hard to get confused if you’re voting for Gore, who’s kinda in the middle of things, but people did get confused. Meanwhile, it’s essentially impossible to get confused about how to mark your ballot for Bush, whose name is in the top left slot on the ballot.
However great or trivial a handicap the ballot design was, it was a handicap that only Gore voters, and supporters of minor parties, had to deal with. You can talk all you want about individual responsibility, but anytime we’re both asked to do one task, and I’m asked to do another task at the same time, it’s a reasonable expectation that if everything else is equal between us, I’m going to make more mistakes on one task or the other, than you are on the one task you’re performing.
Same here. The task Bush and Gore voters in Palm Beach shared was voting. Gore voters also had the added complication of having to deal with a somewhat confusing ballot. A small percentage of them goofed - but that small percentage is far greater than George Bush’s likely lead in Florida, after the recounts are over and the absentee ballots trickle in.
If Bush and Gore voters had had an equal opportunity to screw up their ballots, then you might’ve had an argument that fair’s fair, you guys had your chance. But since you guys never had to find out if some of your voters would be similarly confused by such a ballot, it’s real easy for you to say it’s not your problem.
On a special on CNN right now, they have a room full of voters from this county. An elderly man says he realized he made a mistake, and then a younger person (30’s probably) who claims to have voted for Bush said that he didn’t have a problem, but even in the voting booth, he noticed the problem and thought that people could have screwed it up.
Yer pal,
Satan
*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Seven months, one day, 44 minutes and 39 seconds.
8601 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,075.36.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 45 minutes.
David B used me as a cite!*
The bottom line is that it doesn’t matter if it sounds fair or not.
If you re-vote there, then you open up a pandora’s box of re-voting across the country, in many counties where you can make a case that things seemed “unfair.”
This is bad for the country, and no court should allow it.
From what I have seen lately, we have a huge voting problem in this country. Everybody knew it and decided to just ignore it, and figured it just sort of worked out evenly on both sides.
We need to follow the letter of the law here. No re-voting, and start putting in a more fraud/accident proof system.
FWIW, we have old-fashioned paper ballots in Somerville, MA. There was a sign posted prominently on the door of the classroom we all voted in, and I got to stare at it for about twenty minutes as I (gladly) waited my turn. It stated very clearly that, if you “spoiled” your ballot, you were to take it to the proctor and get a fresh one.
If Florida doesn’t have this rule, then I’d be very very surprised. If they do and the proctors still refused to replace people’s Buchanan-punched ballots, then I’m mad at them.
However, the double-punchers don’t have my sympathy at all. I mean, what do you think they’d do with your ballot?? Obviously you’d realized there was a problem but chose to punch again rather than bring it to the attention of somebody who could help you out. And now you say you were robbed?
Another thing is that the ballots might be illegal, right? We had those exact same ones in Cambridge but the candidates were lined up in a single column, on several pages of a booklet that you turned. You couldn’t punch it the wrong way.
If it’s any consololation, let me relate the primary election fiasco that happened earlier this year in Hawaii.
The ballots had the presidential, house, and senate choices for about five different parties. At the satellite city hall where I made my absentee vote, the floor person mentioned TWICE in a span of a little under half an hour to vote for only one of the parties. Right on the ballot, it said to vote for only one party.
Over four thousand ballots ended up being spoiled because the voter chose more than one party.
There’s just no accounting for some people. Yes, I have bad eyesight too…that’s why I wear glasses. Yes, I know the ballot may have been poorly designed…that’s why I read the instructios and review the ballot carefully before making my choice. If I’m still confused, I ask for help (if someone doesn’t offer to help right away) before voting.
Huh…and we wonder why Americans do so poorly in math. 
I looked at a picture of the ballot in the paper today and I knew a little about the fiasco so I took my glasses off and I could understand it perfectly. For the record, when I’m not wearing my glasses I can see * very * little. If people had just paused to think about it then they would have got it. If they were still having problems they should have asked for assistance.
FTR: I don’t live in FL, voted for Gore. I also believe that while the ballots in question certainly did cause confusion (based on the statements of the people who voted there - doesn’t really matter if I’m not confused, they started complaining BEFORE the polls were closed), that in and of itself does not consitute fraud, and are simply the lessons we learn.
that having been said, there’s more reports coming out of Florida:
http://www.msnbc.com/msn/487574.asp
which, hopefully, leads you to an article about other issues including:
-
Refusing to allow an interpreter to enter the voting booth with a Haitian American.
-
Minority voters being required to submit MORE identification before getting their ballots than the law requires (so far, no white voters have stepped forward to claim this), the minority voters in question were, of course, in a heavily Democratic area.
-
The State Police, coincidently, set up a road block in front of another polling place in an area predominiately populated by black residents, stopping cars and demanding proof of id. Yes, they can do that anytime, anywhere, but…
And, for the record, I will stipulate that I don’t believe that for example, that former Pres. George issued an order for his son Jeb to fix the race. I also believe that dirty tricks are not beneath either party. However, these stories are coming out of different areas. There’s been a history of voting irregularites in FL before. These stories are highly disturbing.
What to do with all this information? I don’t know. It’s not fair to either side at this point. And frankly, I think whoever lands in the office is going to have to walk over coals in order to accomplish anything positive after this.
I have seen the light. Those of you who have been arguing that Al Gore’s plan to fight the Florida election results in court for as long as necessary are in the right. I retract my old belief that Vice President Nixon (in 1960) and Sen. Ashcroft of Missouri (a few days ago) did the statesmanlike thing by accepting questionable election results in the interest of national stability.
Therefore, as a public service, to assist my fellow Illinoisians Bill Daley and Jesse Jackson, and to improve my chances of getting a stay in the Lincoln Bedroom, I have prepared the following affidavit for disenfranchised Palm Beach voters:
AFFIDAVIT OF ____________
I, __________, after being duly sworn, state as follows:
1. I am a registered voter in Palm Beach County, Florida and voted in the November 7, 2000 election.
2. I have problems with depth perception or other vision deficiencies, diminshed mental acuity, or a serious lack of physical coordination.
3. Although I have these problems, I did not ask for assistance with my ballot. Instead, I attempted to vote for Al Gore myself, but accidentally:
(a) punched the wrong hole;
(b) got confused and punched no holes;
(c) punched more than one hole; or
(d) wandered around in a daze until it was too late to vote.
I did not ask for a replacement ballot in order correct my error.
4. I believe that the ballot given to me was misleading, especially to someone like me who is easily confused.
5. I believe that the Presidential election should be repeated for as many times as it takes for me and all my friends to get it right.
6. Like many Democratic voters, I never read a newspaper, so I didn't see the sample ballot published before the election and therefore could not make this protest until now.
7. I call for the impeachment of the Democratic election commissioner in Palm Beach County who prepared this misleading ballot.
8. I also believe that I was one of the 15,000 Palm Beach voters who made a similar mistake in 1996, and therefore want that election overturned as well, if any Democratic candidate in that election lost.
9. I recognize that the handicap(s) described in Paragraph 2 make it unsafe for me to drive. I therefore hereby surrender my Florida driver's license.
10. I am above the age of 18 and fully competent to make this Affidavit.
Signed:____________________________
Al Gore in the White House, more work for lawyers, and safer streets! How could anyone not support this?
** Random ** there are reports that people in that district DID ask for help, DID ask for a different ballot and were turned down.
FWIW, my California election materials indicate that the American Independent party is a group of anti-abortion isolationist conservatives, which sounds a lot like Buchanan. So perhaps NewsMax.com has a point.
As I’ve said to several people in my law office, those people are the only ones who in my opinion who have a compelling case, as their situations involve overt official misconduct not susceptible to redress before election day. I have only heard of one such situation, though.
I think the folks who were required to submit more than 1 piece of ID have a compelling case as well, not to mention the folks that were stopped by a ROADBLOCK set up before the polling place, AND the people who were refused to have an interpreter with them…