Illegal Immigrants and their sob stories.

The BBQ Pit
41

I’m not Canadian but the above is true in my case too. Although, I’m only on my second citizenship application and not my third. :rolleyes: Like Venoma, I have every intention of having my family here and my American husband would be pretty upset if I just up and left. And, yeah, I’m getting pissed about the state of affairs too.

I don’t think you meant any harm but your comment of “guest” is kinda insulting to people who are trying very hard to become citizens but haven’t because of INS snafus. I’m not discounting the issue of illegal immigrants but please don’t discount the nightmarish bureaucracy of the INS. There are a LOT of legal visa holders who do their best to comply with regulations and, through no fault of their own are treated very badly, like a criminal or even lose their legal status because of INS bureaucracy. These are not isolated cases that you are hearing about but an agency-wide lack of accountability regarding applications.

42

This is just one in a line of threads he has started or participated in where he fights for the status quo, no matter how bloody wrong it is.

43

Airman, it’s all well and good for you to toss about these generalizations and platitudes about “guests in our country following our rules”, but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

Imagine if one day they announced that all SDMB posters with military-sounding names had to be audited for the past twenty years. If you filled out any part of your tax forms wrong, no matter how trivial, then you are a tax dodger and are going to be kicked out of the country. Tax dodgers are bad, right? People who don’t want to pay taxes don’t belong here, right? What’s the problem?

Some of the violations that have caused people to be deported are exceedingly minor, akin to writing a number in column 16 of your 1040 instead of column 17. This has caused a lot of fear among legal residents, who are suddenly faced with the possibility of capricious review and deportation by the INS, when they’re just trying to live and work and raise a family. Once someone sets up a life, suddenly forcing them to pack up and leave is a big deal.

I’m a scientist – a significant fraction of people working in the sciences are foreign nationals. Our country’s scientific programs greatly benefit from their contributions, and we would be worse off if this was viewed as a place unfriendly to foreign nationals. You have no idea how much shit foreign nationals have to go through just to get the most routine services from the INS. I don’t see how this new program is going to accomplish anything other than harrassing innocent people from Pakistan, Iran, etc. into leaving.

44

You’re welcome, wring. My husband (Spiny Norman) and I have been dealing with the INS’ bureaucracy for over a year now, and let me tell you, it’s amazing how difficult it is to find correct information (especially on their own official website!) on what forms are even required, what order to file paperwork in, how and where to send information, what does and does not need to be translated, what supporting documents are required, etc., etc., etc. I spent hours and hours and hours researching the INS’ website, the appropriate consulate’s websites, the Department of State website, various law firms’ websites, among others.

Not all the forms you need can be found in any one, consolidated location, and many times there is conflicting information about which forms are actually required. Heck, the INS website stated in big, bold, red typeface that we needed certain forms following 9/11/01, yet the consulate in Frankfurt not only didn’t send them with the packet my husband received from them after I filed the petition for him to enter the U.S. as my fiance, but they sent him forms that the INS had said were now obsolete! If we hadn’t done the research necessary, we would’ve had no way to know that the forms the government provided us were actually WRONG!! And trust me, at some point during the process, someone would’ve found incorrect documents in our file and who knows what would’ve happened then – would he be considered here illegally??

We have followed every rule layed out by the INS, the DOS and the Consulate, and yet, when we got to our interview for change of status to Conditional Permanent Resident a couple of weeks ago, they managed to find a German police record that they suddenly decided had to be translated into English, in spite of the fact that the rules at the time we submitted it stated that any document provided in that particular set of files had to be in either English OR the native language of the country in which you were applying (in this case, Germany). It was just damn lucky that I happen to know a German National who has an office not far from the INS who was at her desk (I caught her just as she was leaving for a lunch meeting) and willing to do a translation and attest to its accuracy on the spot, or we’d’ve been screwed.

Oh, and the photos we had to submit (at least 4 or 5 sets by now), were mysteriously unacceptable, when the same exact photos qualified at every other step of the process, so those had to be taken over and resubmitted as well.

It’s an extraordinarily frustrating and, I’d even go so far as to say, frightening experience!

I feel so incredibly sad for all those people whose documents (some of them original passports and birth certificates!) have been permanently destroyed. :frowning:

45

In Airman’s defense, he’s gotten two bits of bad news, and posted after he got them. So, he posted while in a bad mood, and without really thinking things through.

That said, I don’t think we were listening to the same story on the radio. What I heard was that the people entering Canada had initially entered the US legally, but some of them had expired visas, or were just afraid of the Murrican Gummint. And rightfully so. I can see how the new regulations can spark a lot of abuse. Today, Arab nations with links to terrorists. Eventually (and the Justice Department guy said so), every foreign national from a country required to have a visa to enter the US must register, regardless of country of origin. I can see how the science and tech sectors will suffer, since the hassle of getting qualified people over here will be too great. I can also see American tourism dropping like a rock, as well as foreign students coming to the US to study. Makes you wonder if the whole mess is worth it.

I remember when I was a child in Los Angeles in the 70s. The INS would conduct sweeps up and down Ventura Boulevard, hassling anyone who looked Hispanic for green cards and deporting those without them. Including, IIRC, some American citizens. Truly scary people.

Robin

46

Indeed. I do support the status quo, because I think that the Democrats are jerks, the Republicans are basically brainless at this point, and I’d prefer to see no changes because all they’ll manage to do is jack it up worse than it already is. If our lawmakers managed to get it right I would, in fact, jump off that bridge.

Why you feel the need to insult me, I don’t know. Did I wrong you somehow?

In any event, thank you for your invaluable input. I’m glad that my “toadyism” has helped you to find enlightenment about this topic.

To everyone else, I’m willing to be convinced that my thoughts are in fact wrong. So convince me that “deporting illegal aliens is wrong”. You don’t have to convince me that the INS is jacked. I already knew that. Just help me to understand what you perceive is the error of my ways.

47

Er, unless I missed something, nobody in the thread has said, “Deporting illegal aliens is wrong…”

But hey, you go right ahead and keep on arguing with the wallpaper, there… :smiley:

48

As DDG said, I don’t think anyone is trying to convince you that deporting illegal aliens is wrong. I can’t speak for anyone else but me, but I’m saying that “deporting aliens whose status is now illegal because of INS snafus” is wrong. To that end, the fact that the INS is “jacked” is relevant and the information, shown in this thread, that the INS is not simply making tiny mistakes for a small number of applications. It is making major mistakes in a large number of applications. And I don’t think its right to punish someone when they’ve done their damndest to try and comply with the intricate and poorly communicated rules and the INS screws up and they’re now classified as “illegal”.

49

Shayna, Venoma and those battling the INS to get your spouses into the States:

I really feel for you. We had to jump the same hoops several years ago and I remember hearing stories about the nonsense people had to go through in order to bring their legal spouses to the States.

Just wanted to say, I sympathize and I hope it works out for you very soon.

We gave up John’s greencard when we moved to France, as we weren’t in the States when it came time to complete the process where his greencard is permanent. You know, that bit where you have to prove you are still married, and that you know what colour his toothbrush is.

Honestly, I don’t think the INS problem could be solved even with doubling the number of employees. It’s just one big logistical nightmare that needs to be completely revamped.
/hijack
Just so we don’t think it’s only the States with immigration woes, when I was living in Japan with my Irish husband, we had to apply for permission to get married from both our embassies. I got my US document the same day. The Irish one was tricky. I filled in one date incorrectly, and they refused us permission on the grounds that my divorce didn’t meet the Irish standards of divorce. It came down the point where they gave me a form to get my husband’s statement that he was still residing in the State where we were divorced. Basically, I was forced to ‘get permission’ from him, to get remarried. I didn’t do that, and eventually they were forced to give us permission to get married. We were warned that it would be a problem later as I applied for Irish citizenship (I’ll keep my US citizenship, too).

Ugh. The beaurocracy here isn’t all that much better.

Oh, and for the record, just to be fair, Twisty, foreigners (whether they are assylum seekers or married to Irish nationals) have to register with the Gardi (police) and have their photos taken. I didn’t get fingerprinted, though.

50

There are a few Pakistanis that I would, if I could, bring to the US legally or illegally. My across-the-street neighbor, Salma. Here is the letter that I wrote on her behalf, which I have sent to anyone I think could help [btw, if you have any suggestions on who else to try, let me know. I haven’t had any luck at all so far]

*I am writing this letter on behalf of my friend Salma M., a US citizen living in the US for 11 years. While she speaks very good English, she didn’t feel that she could properly express herself in this letter, and so she told me what she wanted to say, and I am writing this letter for her.

Salma lives with her husband, her two children, and her mother in Centreville, VA, USA. Her sister and brother, Shakeeb and Deba (ages 20 and 22,) are still in Pakistan. She applied for an immigrant visa for them in 1995 and was told it could be 10 years before they could come over.

Salma’s mother, Soryeh, has lived in the US for a year and a half and misses her other two children greatly. She worries about them and cries often. Soryeh contracted Tuburculosis and was hospitalized for three months, during which time she had very little support, and received no aid from SSI. Salma’s husband works 10 hour days, 6 days a week to support the family, and Salma has two young children to care for. The family owns their own home. Salma is currently seeking work as well, which would leave her mother alone during the day. Soryeh doctor, Dr. John K., says that she needs family support and should not be alone. He also says that the stress of worrying about her children is not good for her condition. Soryeh needs her children with her. The Pakistani culture is very family oriented, and it is expected that when the parents health fails the children will take care of them. This separation goes against what she was raised to feel was the natural progression of her life. Because of her health, she cannot even visit them in Pakistan.

Soryeh lives in a constant state of worry about the safety of her children. When she still lived in Afghanistan, her sister and brother in law were shot and killed in their home by the Taliban, while their children hid in the house. She was the one to find her sister’s body. Other members of her family have met with violence, including a cousin who was murdered. She is always worried that her children will be raped or murdered like her own sister. She feels that they are not safe, and, with the situation in that region, they are in increasing jeopardy.

Currently the children are living in the city of Quita with a cousin. This cousin is a widow, her husband having been killed in the fighting. She is raising two children already; in addition, another cousin, the fifteen year old orphan of the sister who was mentioned above, lives with them. There are no adults to look after them; they have very little financial means.

Salma, her husband, and Soryeh want very badly for Shakeeb and Deba to immigrate to the US and live with them, where they can help take care of their mother, get jobs, and live without fear for their lives. This is a family that is broken by a great distance, and needs to be brought back together. *

If I had a way of getting them here, I would do it.

51

The Liberal government made an agreement with the American one called the Safe Third Country Agreement, stating that refugees must seek refugee status in whichever of the two countries they arrived at first.

Therefore, if a refugee in the United States decides that the INS is about to deport them after losing all their paperwork, etc., they will no longer be able to attempt to claim refugee status in Canada, possibly resulting in deportation from both countries.

52

Is that a good thing or a bad thing, Matt? It’s a bad thing with INS messed up like it has been, but I hear big changes are coming over there.

53

That’s a fucking bad thing, IMHO, because it will lead to a decrease in the number of refugee claims accepted legally, and an increase in the number of people who use perilous means to cross the border clandestinely.

54

Well, I’ve got to admit that I agree with parts of AD’s posts.

Yes, INS bureacracy is screwed up. But ALL bureacracies are inherently inefficient when provided with no incentive for efficiency. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

On the other hand, I have trouble feeling sympathy for someone who’s living in the country illegally and flees from the INS. Even if it’s a matter of screwed up paperwork (and again, I acknowledge that it can be) it’s best to confront hte issue rather than run or dodge. Let me say this clearly…nothing good can come of running.

Not only will that make the INS hunt you…it will make them presume your guilt. Bad bad bad.

The simple fact is that in a post-9/11 world immigrants are going to be more tightly controlled than before. Toss in the fact that some of the hi-jackers were on student or other visas and had overstayed them and you’re looking at something the government can appear to be doing to prevent it from happening again. It’s inherently reactive true, but all such efforts are so.

And I’m not going to cry when someone who’s overstayed a visa gets deported. Unless one is a US Citizen or Permanent Resident there’s simply no inherent right to permanently remain in the United States. There’s just not.

I do, however, think the Federal government’s approach of just registering a certain ‘profile’ of person is offensive. Just one more thing that they’re doing that doesn’t jibe with my view of America.

Now if they said that ALL non-US citizens must register with the INS once per year or something I wouldn’t have any problem whatsoever. But just saying ‘males from these countries’ really ticks me off.

55

For anyone who might want a bit of historical perspective on why even legally present aliens, or those with extremely minor immigration violations, might flee to Canada rather than risk going to INS for Special Registration, it’s often because INS has a history of not following its own rules, holding its employees to the same standards of timeliness to which it holds foreign nationals, or using any common sense whatsoever. I suggest you check out the following threads:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=151537&highlight=registration

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=155732&highlight=registration

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=150220&highlight=registration

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=155408&highlight=registration

Enjoy, and if after reading these threads you still have any confidence in INS to treat people fairly, then I give up. It’s enough to make even a native-born U.S. citizen want to immigrate to Canada.

56

This is the one thing I am looking forward to: One of the priorities of Homeland Security is to rebuild INS properly.

57

I, for one, will be absolutely fucking anmazed if they can manage even a significant improvement, let alone anything approaching a reasonable system. And I’ll be even more pleasantly surprised if they can do it without trampling civil liberties.

And what, are you trying to leave me unemployed or something? :wink:

Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal

58

According to the Justice Department guy in the NPR story from yesterday, eventually, registration will be increased to encompass citizens from every country who are required to have a visa to enter the US. So it started with countries known to harbor terrorists, but will eventually include every country.

Robin

59

Well, one of the major hangups INS and its successor agencies had better figure out is the dual citizenship issue. As the regs read right now, a person who is born in a country subject to registration is required to register even if he’s since naturalized in a country that isn’t subject, UNLESS he can prove to INS’ satisfaction that he’s renounced his original nationality in a binding way. The trouble is that INS has given no clear guidance on what constitutes a binding renunciation of nationality, and since decising this issue will potentially involve INS having to make legal determinations on the interactions of laws of basically every country on Earth, this could be a very messy process.

In addition, anecdotal evidence suggests that they are looking for Arabs/Muslims more than they are looking for actual natives of the countries on the list; people of non-Arab or non-Muslim descent born in countries subject to registration (i.e. born to, say, European parents who were living temporarily in the Middle East at the time of the kid’s birth) are mostly being turned away when they inquire whether they are required to register.

60

Reading Shayna and Venoma’s posts have made me thank God that we had such an easy time. April was when he applied on this end, and my K-1 interview was July 23 - four days before our wedding.

I have known about the registration required for Pakistanis in this country for some time. One of my nearest friends locally is a Pakistani who is immigrating to the US. I asked him why he isn’t more outraged, and he shrugged, saying “It’s for the best of the country.”