Here is another immigrant soldier that blows your ideas to hell:
Of course I get the impression you probably won’t bother to read the article in the link.
In states that don’t have a lot of immigrants or illegal aliens, such as Kentucky, Maine, Indiana, or Montana; who works in restaurants and the hotel industry, since some people say that Americans won’t take those jobs.
Doesn’t someone willing to go out and eat bullets for his chosen country demonstrate citizenship in a somewhat more real sense than someone who memorizes the answers for a naturalization exam ? Not to mention the born-and-bred citizen who won’t even bother to get off his butt to vote.
Monty
I am not sure whether or not they felt that certain plots of land were under their protection or not. Even if so, they traded away their right to protect it to the settlers for what they thought was fair. My main point was although everyone in the Western Hemisphere is an immigrant if you go back far enough, that fact alone doesn’t guarentee everyone today the right to immigrate here.
As to physical examinations, so what? I personally feel that anyone coming here should have a medical check up so they aren’t a danger to everyone around them. Besides, a failure in the medical examination doesn’t automatically bar you from entry - usually it opens the door to US medical treatment which is arguably the best in the world.
(sarcasam alert:) Maybe we should just draft all the Mexican illegals that are here in this country, all 10 million of them(or just the adult men and women), and then deploy them as troops in our border patrol in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California assigning them to guarding and patroling our Mexican border to stop illegals from coming in.
Think that would work?
We could also draft all the german, british, french, and arab aliens living here in this country and send only them to Iraq instead of native born American soldiers - that would also solve Bush’s problem in not appearing to invade Iraq “unilaterally”.
We could draft all of our arab aliens now living here and send them to help Isreal and finally get some peace in the middle east.
I’ll answer Ewiser first because it’s a shorter answer.
Some medical conditions bar an individual from entering this country. There’s this whole public health thing the government’s responsible for ensuring. That’s “so what” about the medical exam.
The next posting, quite long, is in response to Susanan.
That’s what’s known as a fact. I am quite aware of factual definitions to be found in any decent dictionary.
That’s what’s known as an opinion. I am not aware of any opinion given as a definition in any decent dictionary.
For one thing, the United States does not have, nor does it depend on a mercenary army. That is, it doesn’t unless you want to go ahead and insult all members of our Armed Forces and say we’re all mercenaries (those who “serve merely for wages”) {btw, I’m retired from the Armed Forces}.
For another, we don’t rely on foreigners for our country’s defense. What our government does is permit certain foreign nationals to enlist in our Armed Forces in certain specialties and with the incentive of speeding up the naturalization (read that as “citizenship”) process.
This country doesn’t depend on foreigners to protect it. As I said above, it permits certain foreign nationals to enlist.
Illegal aliens are not eligible to enlist.
Then you are completely unaware of what you’re talking about. Many very fine Noncommissioned and Petty Officers are foreign nationals, a fair number of them patiently awaiting the culmination of their request to become citizens of this fine country. Those Service Members junior to them in rate/rank are required, by law, to obey the lawful orders issued to them by those Noncommissioned and Petty Officers, regardless of the actual nationality of the Noncommissioned or Petty Officer issuing the order. An interesting thing you might want to ponder for a moment is that those NCOs & POs, although not citizens, are required to obey the lawful orders issued by those superior to them in rank/rate, although they have exactly zero say in the laws passed requiring that. Those same NCOs and POs, not to mention the Nonrates/Privates/Airmen, voluntarily & by law incurred an obligation to the government.
In my experience, I met exactly zero foreign nationals who felt that way about their service in our Armed Forces. On the other hand, I did meet more than a handful of native-born citizens who were in it just for the cash and those were “cashiered” pretty quickly.
Yet again, you prove you don’t know what you’re talking about.
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The foreign national, as all Enlisted members of our Armed Forces are, is taught what the Constitution is.
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The foreign national, as all Enlisted members of our Armed Forces are, is taught about the Bill of Rights.
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The foreign national, as all Enlisted members of our Armed Forces are, is queried in one form or another about certain aspects of our government and history in order to advance in rate/rank.
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The foreign national, although still a citizen of another land, has agreed to support our government and to defend it with his life if need be.
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Item 4 is how that foreign national proves he sincerely believes in our form of government.
As we don’t have a mercenary army, this is irrelevant.
Good news for you. Foreign nationals, along with native citizens who don’t have security clearances, are not permitted access to high security areas. Only those with the proper clearance are. Foreign nationals aren’t eligible for security clearance. Once they’re naturalized, they’re no longer foreign nationals and then it’s a case-by-case basis, just like for any other US citizen, if they get a security clearance.
“Area 51” is, to put it politely, bullshit. You’re doing your so-called argument more harm than it already evidences by mentioning it.
Only those with the proper security clearance can be involved in any “secret aircraft,” thefore I refer you to what I mentioned just above.
Only people with lawful business on base are permitted access to the base. Some of those personnel are members of the Armed Forces. Some of those members are foreign nationals.
Your average private isn’t usually party to the plans on how we’re going to invade wherever.
So your prejudice isn’t restricted to any one particular group of foreign nationals. It’s still prejudice.
You might want to do yourself a favour and notice that one of, if not the, most decorated outfits in our Armed Forces during World War II was composed of Japanese and Japanese-Americans.
If they’re in our Armed Forces, I have no problem with it. After all, I believe in our Constitution and am fully aware that the Constitution has granted the Congress the right to make laws regarding naturalization of foreigners. Congress saw fit, and I support that law, to allow certain foreign nationals to enlist into the Armed Forces.
However many the Congress declares.
No. You do what we currently do: advance that individual based on his proven performance and knowledge, allow him certain benefits as a consequence of his willingness to enter the Armed Forces of a country of which he not a citizen but has evidenced intent to become one (that was by immigrating), and treat him like a human being.
Just like a US citizen Sergeant will be handling a platoon full of both US citizens and foreign nationals in any other combat situation: Well and professionally. I’m also inclined to believe that he’ll probably know how to spell the rank.
Irrelevant. If the base is “sensitive,” then it has, like every base does, areas which require those entering those areas to have the appropriate security clearance. See above.
Please, go on. I’m astounded at the level of ignorance displayed. By that, I mean I’m surprised that you are so vehemently stating stuff about which you obviously have nothing more than an ill-formed opinion, said opinion based on exactly zero facts.
Yes, you are.
As has been shown to you already, many resident aliens have served very well in our history and past wars. That kind of shoots your ill-informed rant right out of the water, doesn’t it?
The second-in-command of the US Central Command is an Arab-American. Care to make a fact-based comment on that?
Susanann, my brother was 11 months old when my family moved to the United States from England; I was 2 1/2. I became a naturalized U.S. citizen when I was 21. My brother wasn’t naturalized until he was in his 30’s, in part because of the tremendous bureaucratic hassle involved in becoming a U.S. citizen. I also have a second brother who was born about 7 months after we moved to the U.S. and who has therefore always been a U.S. citizen. My younger brother served in the U.S. Army. I applied to join the Air Force around the time I was being naturalized, but was turned down. All three of us were educated in America; all three of consider American our home and would fight for her very readily indeed.
You said you don’t want an American soldier to take orders from a foreigner. Of my two brothers, the older of them, the one who was born in England, is a much better leader and would make a much better officer. Would it really be a worse thing for a soldier to take orders from him than my other brother? My heart still swells with pride when I think of my naturalization, but I don’t think it created a fundamental change in me. If anything, you’d think several months of dealing with bureaucrats might lessen one’s love of country! 
Regarding mercenary aspects, one of the reasons my brother and I both considered the military is we both needed jobs. The military still focuses a lot on helping people pay for tuition and getting marketable job skills in their advertising. Surely a kid who joins the army because it’s the only way he can get money for college is also some form of mercenary, regardless of citizenship?
I know, I know. This is pretty much a predictable response for me, but as someone who was a legal alien for nearly 20 years, and as someone who chose this country as a free-willed adult, it bothers me when someone says that those of us who weren’t born here are somehow less American, less patriotic, or less fit to serve.
Respectfully,
CJ
I have very strong feelings on the point of illegal immigrants also. These are strictly personal feelings and most people would call me prejudice, backwards, close-minded, etc. But it’s only my opinion and it certainly changed with 9/11. Watching those towers fall, seeing the people jump out of windows changed my heart. If it were up to me, I’d close the borders and allow restricted foreign travel to this country. We have become a fat, lazy, country. I’ve heard many of the old-timers say that a depression would change the minds of a lot of people and put this country back to where it needs to be. Where people work physically and mentally for their upkeep. I agree that we use these illegal immigrants for work that we “Americans” deem to be below us now. I can remember working in tobacco as a child. From the time I was 10 years old until I was 16 and old enough to hold a part-time public job. It is a filthy, hot, back-breaking job. Now you have immigrants doing that work because it got below us to do it and well, it was hard. What would be great is to get people off the welfare system and into jobs, any job, that pays enough to support their family, not in the manner they WANT to live but in the manner they COULD live. And erase this ‘below me’ job attitude. But, well we can’t do that now because the job market is flooded. We tend to cut our own throats.
And yes I know that most of us are immigrants, not native born Americans. But where do you stop it? Just let it continue forever because no one can claim to be a true native born American?
As far as the military goes, let the ones that want to go and defend our country do so, don’t force people to do what they don’t want to because they’ll never do it up to true standards. I’m proud of our Armed Forces. They do a job that most of us shrink from.
I am talking about volunteers. People who don’t want to go into the military could go back to their own countries.
I agree that certain military jobs, like some civilian jobs, would only be done by people approved for security clearances. I don’t know what is involved in granting those clearances, but somehow I think that a person’s loyalties would be considered. If someone was in the military just for the money, which really is a pretty pathetic amount of money and not as much as is deserved (sorry, it’s a personal rant), I don’t think they would be approved for clearances.
I don’t know if certain jobs are filled by immigrants because Americans think the jobs are beneath them, or because companies know it will not cost them as much if they exploit immigrants to do those jobs. I do not like to see abusive employers no matter who the employees are, but I know that companies would have to pay more if there wasn’t a labor force eager to take on any job at any salary.
What about conscientious objectors, desroscactus?
Conscientious objectors could go back to their own country. If OP means original post, by the way, I never did say we should grab every foreigner to serve in the military. That would be a problem. What I said was that people caught coming here illegally should be offered the chance of serving in the military in this country or going back to their own countries. They then have the choice of returning or serving in the military here. It would be a chance for them to gain legal citizenship. If they did not want to do that, they could then be returned home.
In other words, they have the option of violating their conscientious objection to military service. Doesn’t sound any more workable than the OP.
Since my original post seems to have been misunderstood by a lot of people, I quote from it here. Once again, I think people should be offered a CHOICE of serving in the military or being returned to their own country. If they really are conscientious objectors, they should go to a country that is not at war with anybody if they can find one. Maybe Switzerland? Oh, no, wait a minute. During WWII, a lot of Jews thought they were safe when they arrived in Switzerland, only to have the Swiss contact the Nazi’s and turn them in. Well, it’s up to them where they go.
I wish that it was true that most of the illegals are good people. Talk to some people who live near the border, and you will hear stories and see pictures of cut fences, trampled ground, carcasses of dead livestock, discarded clothes, trash and empty jugs that probably had water in them.
A lot of times, too, the people crossing are led by a person known as a coyote, that charges them a fortune and sometimes robs, rapes and kidnaps them. Immigrants have been found in desert areas with no water or food, saying they had been left there by the coyotes. Especially in the summer, that can be deadly.
Another group distribute illegal drugs in this country. I guess you could say they are coming here to work, but selling drugs is illegal in this country.
I wish the federal govenment would take protecting this country more seriously. Geez, what does it take?
Anecdotal evidence. See “Jews eat babies,” “blacks are dirty.” No indication of where this came from, what percentage of “illegals” or “legals” or even gen you whine Ewe Ess Ahy citizens caused this.
This makes illegals “bad”… how? If you’re desperate and someone takes advantage of you, this makes you a bad person?
Last time I checked, there were groups of US citizens selling drugs in the US as well. Can we use your logic and claim that “most” US citizens are “not good people?”
I wish governments, and people in general, would reassess exactly what is a threat to their little lives and what isn’t…
I’ll be happy to provide further cites re: impact of illegal immigraiton on the economy when I get back to work Monday (where I have such things bookmarked), but there is a major logical error here; even if your factoid about illegal immigrants receiving $8 billion a year in SS benefits is true, that doesn’t mean no illegals = $8 billion more for U.S. citizens and legal immigrants. Plenty, if not most, of illegal immigrants contribute to Social Security; many work in non-under-the-table type jobs, and have taxes, including FICA, deducted frm their wages like everyone else. They are, however, less likely ever to collect on Social Security because of their lack of legal status; even if they could jump through all the bureaucratic hoops, many are terrified to file for benefits forfear of being caught and deported. And some either don’t remain forever in the U.S. and so never gain the benefit of the quarters of FICA they contributed because they return to their home countries voluntarily (and keep in mind that not all illegal immigrants are Mexicans, please!), or are caught and accept voluntary departure orders or are ordered deported and lose whatever contributions they made to SS that way.
I’d also be curious to know the source for your $8 billion number.
You’re sick mate, you would have downtrodden and exploited economic refugees invade countries and murder people for your neo-liberal, rape and pillage, government? Lets stick Bush, Blair and Howard on the battlefield and see how they like copping what they dish out. No, it is the lower working class that will be the fodder, the same “illegals” who bolster the US economy now will be made to do American dirty work, the state sponsored terrorism for which America has long been renowned. When the US slaughters another one hundred thousand Iraqi conscripts, women and children, many Americans will see it for what it is, others will accept, condone and support this unjustified war. We are working hard here in Australia to get the facts and arguments out, and it is working, Australians are not gullible and require a case for war based on actual evidence. Not US speculation, rhetoric and out and out lies, yes, that’s right, George W. Bush is a liar. You cannot liberate a country by bombing it into the third world and appointing a military dictator of your choosing. That is just another repetition of hypocritical US imperialist response to a country defying US hegemony. Remember Chile? Panama? Nicaragua? Cuba? And so on. There is nothing new about the Bush administration’s attitude towards its competitors or allies. The contempt America shows for democracy, the U.N. and even NATO (who approved the Afghanistan invasion but were not asked to participate.) has not gone unnoticed.
Increasingly there is one rouge state the world needs to be concerned about, it has a huge military capability, it loves to go to war, it has the biggest stock piles of WMD’s on earth, it is the world’s only super-power and now it thinks it is unaccountable to the international community. America, you can bomb the entire world, but you need your allies or the economy that feeds your war machine will falter further and the US empire will finally fade, hopefully into a better, more equitable, more democratic, more socialist and more free society. Don’t let it happen! Keep killing, keep pretending your democracy works, it will all be OK.
I might add that anyone, under international law, has the right to arrive without permission or papers if they are determined in time to be refugees. Some of these people are genuine Asylum seekers who have fled wars just like the one we will wage on Iraq.
OK… As someone born, raised and living Uruguay (look it up if you dont know where that is :D) I felt the need to register my racially inferior self just to repond to this thread.
Firstly, I just cannot believe the amount of idiots a country like the USA can afford to support. And I dont mean the inmigrants, which may vary widely in intelligence but tend to be tempered by adversity and streetwise. I mean home-grown idiots who think the guvment (usually spelt like that, of course) owes them a living because they were born there, that everyone living in the Middle East is automatically an enemy, and that Britney Spears can sing.
That said, let me throw in my 0,56 pesos (two cents). My country is indeed going to hell, for many different and very complex circumstances, many of which are outside of our control and some are even outright caused by the USA. I, nor anyone here, can just pick up a rifle, start a revolt and overthrow the government… If we did, things would get WORSE, not better, much much worse.
Unemployment is bordering on 18%, and many people who are employed work for ridiculously low wages. To give you a rough idea, an office clerk or an army private might expect to make around 3000 pesos (100 US dollars) a month, by working 8 hours a day, five or six days a week.
If that guy, as many do, decided to leave the country because he cant even feed his family, he would find himself unwanted almost everywhere. Legal inmigrants are rarely accepted when their passport has “Uruguay” stamped on it. If he decided to emigrate legally into the US, he would have to begin by shelling out 100 US dollars for a visa, which could be arbitrarily denied by an official at the US embassy. If he got that, he would have to go through another interview on arrival, and if that second official doesnt like his face, he can be sent back, WITHOUT being refunded the months worth income he spent in the visa.
And thats just to travel to the USA… if he actually wants to settle down, he has to go through a much harder process, which usually results in him having wasted time and money just to be sent back.
There are lots of people here who want to migrate. And let me tell you, most are regular people who do not intend to travel 5000 km just to hold a switchblade at passerby s throats, or sell crack in a street corner… they want JOBS, and more often than not they wind up scrubbing toilets for pennies 8-14 hours a day, because they are not protected by any kind of social security. Do you think that they do that for fun? Is that “stealing your wealth”?
PS: I am not putting you all in the same bag, of course. While some posters have shown outstanding levels of bigotry, most of you seem like a fairly understanding bunch… this post isnt referred to those people.