I agree that it started with ranting, and continued with ditto’s. But, it’s starting to become a debate.
well, fuckin a.
and since were on the subject, why is that a lot of puerto ricans have a puerto rican flag on their car? like hanging from the rear view mirror, or as a bumper sticker, or wherever… i mean, i’m in los angeles, and i see that everywhere. i don’t know if it only happens here, but i see it a damn lot.
and also, those bumper stickers that say “i love [insert mexican city here].” what the hell is up with that? if you love it so much, why don’t you go there?
Right. Because the only people who have a right to enjoy some other country are white americans. I’m sure that you love L.A. more than any other city in the world, and you would never want to be anywhere else.
Why is it that is unacceptable for anyone except European AMericans to be proud of their heritage?
well, i can’t really say that i do, since i have never lived in another city.
why should anyone be proud of their heritage? being proud of something is something that you have accomplished. like if you painted your house all by yourself, you can be proud of that. if you wrote a script for a movie, and it won an oscar, you can be proud of that. but just being born? you can take pride in that? that’s not an accomplishment. your parents had some sex and you were the result.
So you think that separating yourself from the mainstream is a way of addressing your problems?
Not so.The rights of blacks mattered very little when they lived apart and were forcibly segregated.It was the courage of those who sought reconciliation and mobilised opinion which included both black people and white people that brought about change.
Suddenly blacks were recognised not as aliens but as Americans.
Separation from the mainstream, makes you an easy target.There is a differance between a ‘club’ and a rejection of the values and aspirations that the rest of America strives for.
When people parade under a foreign flag the counter-reaction is almost certainly going to be.
“Hell if they don’t like it why don’t they go back home” and the whole point of the protest is likely to be undermined.
That is just bad PR.
Had the US flag been used and people prosecuted what do you think the reaction by middle-America would have been?
If you want to change the system then become part of it, show everybody you are fighting for the rights of all Americans and not just a hyphenated few.
Do not wait for the last judgement-It takes place every day
CAMUS-The Fall
I agree with Microshroom. Why the hell do people expect me to be proud of my heritage. I’m proud of the things I do as an individual, regardless of race.
Let me say this three ways:
-
I am against Blacks, Whites, Latinos, Women, Irish, Poles, Gays, American Indians, Men, and the handicapped.
I am for people. -
Pride or recognition of ethnicity is not a bad thing. It is bad when that ethnicity becomes the primary driver of identity, or when it is followed with the supposition that it somehow makes one better or more deserving of special treatment.
-
After playing well and suffering without complaint through the endless jibes and prejudice of his teammates and fans, Jackie Robinson retired. A commentator noted “He was a credit to his race.” The co-commentator agreed “Yes, the human race.”
I feel no particular pride in being American.
It required no effort on my part to be born here and would require effort that I’m not willing to expend to go live somewhere else.
I’m much more proud of my open mindedness and determination to understand things, but even that pride I could do without, because it tends to have me feel superior to others who have different priorities.
When my kid was in first grade, his teacher sent home a request that each student prepare a pie graph of their ethnic heritage. She helpfully included a printed circle for us to make the pie out of that had the words “Ethnic Pride.” So here we are in Iowa, the most white bread place in the world. My wife and I are about 6th or 8th generation Americans with only the vaguest idea what our ancestors literally dozens of nationalities are. Even weirder, we have a general sense they came from central Europe, but it was prior to the unification of Germany so what are we? Prussian? Austria-Hungarian?
More importantly, what does it mean? After about 150 years we are completely Americanized. We have no family traditions from Europe. We are Americans and nothing else. Here’s the clincher: my son is adopted and of obviously different genetic and geographic decent. But he is an AMERICAN!
I sent the pie graph back with no slices and the words “100% American like everybody else in my class.” The teacher called me and said that I “obviously don’t understand the relevance of ethnicity.” My response was “On the contrary; you don’t.”
Bottom line: In the history of the world much pain, suffering and evil but very little good have resulted from ethnic pride.
Here’s what I would like to do. I would like to take every American ( Meaning those from the U.S.) and put them in a blender. ( you understand that this is a metaphor, right?) I would mix them together, and from them produce one person. That is the person that I try to be. This person would be comprised of everone else. He ( I’ll call it he for simplicity ) would have the courage that my American brothers with brown skin have demonstrated in standing up and saying “we are people with inalienable rights” and holding fast to that in the face of water cannons, attack dogs and murder. He would have the dignity of those Chinese immigrants who came to the west in great numbers during the Nineteenth Century and made a home in the face of violence and persecution. He would have the pride of the European forefathers who envisioned a place where ALL men are created equel. He would remember always the sorrow of the Natives of this contenent that were systemitacally exterminated in the name of progress, that it never happen again. He would take the hopes, dreams and acomplishments of every American who has ever lived, and hold them near his heart to nurture them so that they will never die. He would LEARN from the evils and misdeeds of the past, and temper that knowledge with the compassion of the women who forced men to relize that they had the same worth they did. Hyphenated-American? We all are. It is from the joys, acomplishments and the sorrow and defeats of every American who has ever lived that we are created. Let us take that great heritage, unique in the world, and use it to nurture a place where truely ALL are created equal. Let us not squander that gift by seperating out the various parts into a lesser whole. I AM AN AMERICAN, OF African, European, Asian, Australian and South American descent. Do not presume to assume that any one of these parts is either more or less important than the others. Together, they comprise a being who is unparralleled in history. Apart, there are nothing more than a bunch of squabbling children, each grasping for “mine”, and fuck the rest.
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Gotta disagree with you on that one. Show me some instances. If you are talking about racism, yeah. If you are talking about discrimination, yeah. But, simply having pride ion your heritage? Give me a break.
On to some other points. It’s interesting that many people are saying, you are an American first and foremost. I certainly don’t feel so. I feel more akin to Mexican and Russian and Korean workers than I do to some Americans. I have absolutely nothing in common with Madeline Albright or Bill Clinton or the CEO of my company. I do have quite a bit in common with other people around the world who work for a living. I think it’s harmfull to refer to ourselves as Americans at all. and if are going to, what’s the harm in adding a little hypenation. Why does everyone get so worked up by it, what about it threatens youi? It seems very akin to the reactions that people have when someone announces they are gay. * It;s ok if you are gay, just don’t make it public knowledge *
Citizen of the world, and of the kingdom of God. Incidentally have the good fortune to be an American.
Maybe we’re thinking too small, here?
“Living in this complex world of the future is not unlike having bees live inside your head.” - F. Scott Firesign
Isn’t racism ethnic pride taken to its logical end? If so a short list of the recent crimes committed in the name of ethnic pride is:
Nazi persecution of Jews, Slavs, Gypsies etc.
Serbian persecution of Muslims, Croats etc.
The tragedy of Rwanda
Iraqi and Turkish oppression of Kurds
And the list goes on and on.
Whenever a person says I’m proud to be a Mexican-American or German-American it is only a very small step to saying something like I’m proud to be a white-American or Aryan. The final disgusting step is to argue that you are a member of the “master race.”
The way I see it, “ethnic pride” is often the first step on the long journey to genocide.
Pride always hurts more than it helps.
"How dare you assume they were all Americans. That is just like people calling you Mexican American. A good portion of them could have very well been Mexican citizens.
"
why would mexican citizens be protesting a law in los angeles?
I think we should get rid of the PC thugs 
One thing, pride in heritage, Its always good when you can take pride in someone elses accomplishments or the fact that you are born superior.
We got a paper from the school board that confirms our daughter’s school assignment for the next year. On the front of the paper is a blurb that states that the school system does not discriminate in any of its programs on the basis of race, gender, religion, and so on, and so on, and so on. On the back is a long list of rules about students in the racial majority transferring into a district where they are in the racial minority, or students in the racial minority transferring into another district where they are in the racial minority, and so on, and so on. I cannot figure out how in the world the two sides of that paper can be reconciled. A whole string of court cases has resulted in some sort of Orwellian doublespeak, near as I can tell.
I don’t feel particularly proud to be an American, as if that fact says something wonderful about me personally, but I feel very, very lucky to be one.
SouthernXYL - American by birth, Southern by the Grace of God!!! : )
You’ve got an interesting thread going here.
There is nothing wrong with ethnic pride.
Identifying with an ethnic group, and being proud of one’s background is a uniting factor for many. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t want to be accepted by those around him, or by those who share common interests, or a common heritage. We all feel the need to be accepted. That’s HUMAN nature, and from this board, I see we all agree that we’re humans.
But identifying with an ethnic group, does not mean separating yourself from others. This country is composed of so many people from many different backgrounds. I agree, if we all got to know each other, we’d realize that we are all just humans. Basically, we are the same. But somethings do make us different. Is that wrong? Shouldn’t we learn about these differences that seem to unite the people that share these certain traits? You know that YOU have traits, ideas, characteristics that are similar to other people of your ethnic background…obviously others do too. Sharing one’s ethnicity with others helps unite, not separate. You learn that you have certain things that make you different and special, but you’re not the only one.
The problem arises when one uses ethnicity as a weapon against others. That is the root of nationalism in regions such as Bosnia, Serbia, Rwanda, etc. These are exclusionary views taken to an extreme.
In the United States, luckily, there is no serious threat of an ethnic group taking over and excluding others by force. Expressions of ethnic pride such as those in Los Angeles arise when a group of people, who identifies with a particular cultural background (Hispanics/Latinos)needs to express their views against what they feel is a threat. Hispanics come to this country and then “snub their nose” at the government??? Certainly not! They came to this country to better their lives. Now certain people in the California government want to make their lives worse? When the government creates laws that are wrong, the people affected by it, and all who believe it is wrong, have a right to protest. What they were doing was very American. Granted, U.S. flags could have been used in the marches, but what’s wrong with using a Mexican flag as well? No one is declaring an independent state. No one is challenging the structure and cohesiveness of the U.S. government. The Mexican flag is a unifying banner. Seeing as how most of the people affected by the law were Mexican in origin, obviously they were going to use a Mexican flag. Using this flag is no different than any kind of banner at a march or protest. It is a statement which is being represented visually. Because a majority of people in the Los Angeles marches were Mexican, obviously the Mexican flag was going to predominate. Take a closer look and you would see other flags as well (these were clearly shown on Spanish TV news shows).
Finally, the use of the hyphenated -American term is an excellent form for someone to proclaim that they indeed are American, and at the same time a representative of one of many cultures whose unique background should indeed be shared and respected. If this was done more often, we might end the ignorance that creates so much fear and separation.
IIRC, that one did not start in the mouths of white liberals or in the speech patterns of the terminally politically correct, but instead was assertively adopted by a certain segment of the Old Families in the southwest.
[snob] They do not consider themselves mere Americans. “America” is a recent phenomenon and they were here first. They most certainly do not consider themselves “Mexicans”; neither they nor their ancestors ever lived in any placed called “Mexico”, they’ll hasten to tell you. Their ancestors came from Spain, settled in a New World land owned by Spain, although in very recent times the political possession of those lands has changed to an infant nation that calls itself “USA”, a situation that may or may not last. Immigrants from Mexico are a very different class of people, newcomers even to “America”, whereas, to them, Americans of non-Hispanic descent are newcomers. Only the Indio natives lived here before them.
They refer to a certain city in Texas as El Paso del Norte and one in New Mexico as La Villa Real de Santa Fe. Their daughters are to marry into families that have land grant deeds signed by King Ferdinand framed on their walls. [/snob]
Disable Similes in this Post
Great post pro nobis. Couldn’t hae put it better myself
[quote]
Originally posted by Distwalker:
**Isn’t racism ethnic pride taken to its logical end? If so a short list of the recenent crimes committed in the name of ethnic pride is:
**
[quote]
No it is not. Pride is self respect. Ethnic pride is being proud of your ethnicity. Racism has nothing to do with that. Racism is the belief in the superiority of your race. Just because I’m proud of my accomplishments does not mean I’m one step away from thinking everyone else is scum. YOu also have to look at he context in which racism arises. It does not come up free standing, apart from the events of the world.
Plus it’s just offensive to say that ethnic pride leads to racism. It’s like equating the jews who had ethnic pride, to the Germans who were racist.
[quote]
**
Nazi persecution of Jews, Slavs, Gypsies etc.
Serbian persecution of Muslims, Croats etc.
The tragedy of Rwanda
**
[quote]
These events occured when it was nesecary to deflect blame off of the rling class on to some other ethnic group. Much as what happens with immigrant bashing today. Get people to blame someone else rather than the people in power
**
This has to do with * mostly * economics. The Kurds sit on an area of land that they want for a homeland, the Turks and Iraqis don’t want to give up any land. they oppress them. * That was a gross oversimplification*
Again like I said before, you are saying tht it a small step for me to turn from someone who is proud of my heritage into a mass murderer. You are saying that no one has a right to self respect. And there is a big difference between saying I’m proud to be a Mexican-American an I’m proud to be a white-American.
Reposted with correct quotes
Great post pro nobis. Couldn’t hae put it better myself
No it is not. Pride is self respect. Ethnic pride is being proud of your ethnicity. Racism has nothing to do with that. Racism is the belief in the superiority of your race. Just because I’m proud of my accomplishments does not mean I’m one step away from thinking everyone else is scum. YOu also have to look at he context in which racism arises. It does not come up free standing, apart from the events of the world.
Plus it’s just offensive to say that ethnic pride leads to racism. It’s like equating the jews who had ethnic pride, to the Germans who were racist.
These events occured when it was nesecary to deflect blame off of the rling class on to some other ethnic group. Much as what happens with immigrant bashing today. Get people to blame someone else rather than the people in power
**
This has to do with * mostly * economics. The Kurds sit on an area of land that they want for a homeland, the Turks and Iraqis don’t want to give up any land. they oppress them. * That was a gross oversimplification*
Again like I said before, you are saying tht it a small step for me to turn from someone who is proud of my heritage into a mass murderer. You are saying that no one has a right to self respect. And there is a big difference between saying I’m proud to be a Mexican-American an I’m proud to be a white-American.
Oldscratch
Why does one need to be proud of ones ethnicity?
I am secure enough in who and what I am to not require the backup of ethnicity.
Ethnicity is all in the mind .It only matters when another person makes it matter.We are usually very selective in our ethnic values ,conveniently forgetting things that may not suit us ,so we may decide that the Scottish heritage is more important than Russian heritage yet there may be equal amounts of both in one family.
If we simply threw out all that nationalistic nonsense and evaluated each other on their individual merits there would be less strife ,maybe we would not get the ganging of racial groups in school or the lack of opportunities in life like employment.
Weirddave (good name eh?)
Yes I think you are right but given the twisted nature of mankind I think we would probably get an amalgum of the worst of what man has to offer.
Y’know the coldness of the Brits ,arrogance of the Germans etc.
quote
This has to do with mostly economics. The Kurds sit on an area of land that they want for a homeland, the Turks and Iraqis don’t want to give up any land. they oppress them. That was a gross oversimplification
Who cares what the reasons were? The events that took place were still fuelled by ethnic hatred.If the people being suppressed are your own kind ,as we all are ,the politicians and rabble raisers are doomed when they try this sort of thing.