Oldscatch says, “it’s just offensive to say that ethnic pride leads to racism.” Offensive is a subjective term. I think that ethnic pride leads to racism it is a statement of fact. Anyone offended by my comments should either not read them or simply ignore them. I’ve noticed that in modern discourse there is no offense worse than being offensive. It seems when one plays the “I’m offended” card, all others are expected to fold.
I suppose I should point out that I didn’t say that ethnic pride is racism. I said that ethnic pride taken to its logical end is racism. People are, I suppose, proud of the “accomplishments” of their ethnic group. Compared to what? The answer is other ethnic groups. Nobody is proud of the perceived shortcomings of his ethnic group. It is a small step to go from “I’m proud of my ethnic group’s accomplishments” to “my ethnic group has done things that no other has done” to “my ethnic group is superior.”
Nazis were full of ethnic pride. So are the KKK and the Aryan Nation. Arkan’s Tigers were overflowing with Serbian pride. The Tutsis in Rwanda are proud of their ethnic heritage as where the Hutus who ruled before them.
Question to those of you who have insight to the rule of political correctness: If I were so inclined, would it be okay for me to beam with pride over my white, anglo, Protestant ethnicity? Of course not; we all know that.
On examination, it seems that the gaurdians of politcal correctness, in the manner of true Orwellian doublethink, have decided that when a member of a minority group is proud of his ethnicity it is “diversity” and a societal good. But if a member of the majority has similar feelings it is horribly inapporpriate.
I submit that, in either case, very little good ever results from ethnic pride.
Quote:
It is a small step to go from “I’m proud of my ethnic group’s accomplishments” to “my ethnic group has done things that no other has done” to “my ethnic group is superior.”
Actually, it is a small step to go from “I’m proud of my ethnic group’s accomplishments” to “my ethnic group has done things that no other has done” to “other ethnic groups have done things that no others have done, and their members have a right to be proud.”
One does not need to diminish others accomplishments to feel good about one’s own accomplishments. Accepting others ethnicity is as important as being proud of your own. Otherwise, it leads to events like ethnic cleansing and genocide.
I am not particularly ‘proud’ to be an American. The history of this nation is revolting at worse and tolerable at best. From the Salem Witch Trials to the L.A riots. However, America IS the best thing we’ve got going for us. Ultimately we live in a democracy and we are allowed to make our own decisions in a good economy. I am American as they come. The closest thing to a ‘heritage’ I have is my grandmother’s parents immigrated from Italy in the early 1900s. My BF is black/hispanic/American Indian/caucasion. He’s as American as I am, he was born and raised in America. One of my best friends is BLACK. She would rip me a new one if I called her African American. My other friend is German. But he is AMERICAN. He too would rip me a new one if I called him German-American.
I personally believe the problems and racism would decrease greatly if people stopped segregated themselves into ()-Americans. If Mexican Americans group up then people will naturally group up AGAINST them. Because their actions indicate they are different/too good/not good enough then everyone else. And it’s people’s natural reaction to turn on other people who do that.
“Everybody’s got something to hide except for me and my monkey”-The Beatles
A foreigner is someone living in a foreign country, or who has recently arrived in the U.S. for a visit or whatever. A foreign-american is that person once he has begun to function as a permanent resident, or his children or Grandchildren, etc., so long as they display a significant degree of foreign ethnicity. Ethnicity is not simply a recounting of one’s ancestral heritage, but how that affects your behavior, such as your language or accent, your taste in food or dress, or other mannerisms. (The extent to which religion should be considered a form of ethnicity is a very complex question.) The more assimilated and less foreign-seeming the immigrant’s descendants become, and the more indistinguishable from everybody else they become, the less appropriate it is to label them foreign-americans. They are Americans of foreign descent. (Remember, race and ethnicity are two different things.)
If you say you have “pride” in your heritage that’s good enough for me, and if you insist on being referred to as a hyphenated-american, fine. But don’t presume to hyphenate someone else simply because find out what their background is. A surname is just a word; it’s how a person feels about himself and his identity that counts.
Overemphasis on ethnic identity is indeed divisive and tends to quash the individual. The two most important subdivisions of society are the individual and society as a whole. We need to espouse the idea of a mainstream culture. You don’t have to fully embrace the mainstream culture, but you must not reject or dismiss it either. English is the language of American society; expecting you to learn it not simply a load of racism.
Mainstream American culture is not racist. It may have been at one time, and therein lies the problem. People have been brought up to believe that society is racist based on out-of-date experiences. Racial profiling by police remains a serious problem, but it has nothing to do with culture or heritage. It’s based on a pseudo-scientific statistical risk analysis, not traditional Southern-style bigotry. Of course it’s wrong, but it isn’t meant to be taken personally. On the other hand, white supramacy and other forms of cutural chauvanism are fringe movements and do not justify a divisive backlash within the mainstream.
Well good for you but let’s be realistic. People like to think of themselves as being of a particular group. Whether it is at continental or national level or even just a rivalry between cities, towns and villages. I’m European (or at least from a country that is part of Europe), I am British*, I am also Scottish and Glaswegian. I’m from the South Side of Glasgow. Let’s take as an example the most common form of ethnic conflict, sport. In the Ryder Cup I want Europe to win. At the Olympics I want Britain to win medals. At the World Cup I want Scotland to win. In soccer I want Glasgow Rangers to win. All I am saying is that I consider myself to be part of ALL of these groups at different times. To claim total individuality and lethargy towards the idea of nationhood and ethnicity is strange indeed. I am intensely proud of what I am, a Scot. A Scot who has achieved academically, who has a great job and who is well-mannered, well-adjusted and articulate. These are all characteristics I attribute to myself. Being Scottish is just another of those attributes. I am also secure enough in who and what I am, and my ethnicity is part of what I am, as is yours.
Of course it is
Admirable sentiment but not likely. We all have our prejudices and we are all different. We are too complex to suggest that we should all just snap out of it.
Or how about the coldness and arrogance of the Brits and Germans? Scary. These days those sort of national stereotypes don’t hold water.
Nope, the teacher might not have understood, but it seems clear that you didn’t. I was born in Iowa, and yes it is pretty dang white–for us, now. When my gramma was young, Spillville IA was a “Bohemian” town, Elgin was “Norwegian,” etc. My great-grampa was known as “French Larry” to distinguish himself from everyone around him. “White” as a concept didn’t exist–it was your people versus everyone else.
To understand prejudice it can be very helpful for people to actually learn from history and fight ignorance. No matter how long our families have been there, virtually all of us could find a time in our trees when ethnicity was a bar and a barrier. Learning about this could help us to find better methods for our own time. Burying our heads in the sand is ignorance itself.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Bucky:
** Nope, the teacher might not have understood, but it seems clear that you didn’t.
So Bucky, what does my adopted son of Asian decent say for this school project?
My father is German, Belgian, Czech, English, Norwegian and Polish and my mother is French, Irish, Italian, Spanish, Romanian and at least 1/4 “she doesn’t know what”?
Or perhaps he says my biological parents are from California and of unknown mixed Asian background but I don’t know much about them because they abandoned me as an infant?
I have a better idea Bucky, leave the whole damn thing alone and let the kids take pride in what they are: free people who live in Iowa right in the middle of the good ol’ US of A. The rest is absolutely meaningless.
SIGH
I could just direct you to read earlier posts for a good argument against what you said, but here goes.
It isn’t that Mexican-Americans decided to segregate themselves. Through out history, most foreigners coming to America would have loved to integrate with the whole. For reasons we all know about, they weren’t allowed. People were told you can’t be American you’re Irish, or Chinese or Mexican, whatever. Once divided into these groups people, instead of being ashamed of their ethnic heritage decided to be proud of it.
Your last argument could also be applied to religion. People shouldn’t be Mormons because their actions indicate that they are different and people will turn on them for it. You can also place those arguments on Jews or Homosexuals. I hope that when you look at it in that light you see how ridiculous your argument is.
One you may think that it is a fact, that doesn’t make it non-offensive. Just like someone can say “Homosexuality is against God’s will”. They can thing that is a statement of fact. That doesn’t mean it’s any less offensive and that doesn’t mean I should ignore that comment. Saying that ethnic pride leads to racism can be easily disproved, all I have to do is point to one instance of it not doing so. “Ethnic pride can lead to racism” would be a more appropriate statement.
Pro nobis answered this one pretty well, I’ll just add another point. In today’s society you are not allowed to be neutral about your ethnic heritage, other people won’t allow it. You are supposed to be either ashamed or proud. Given those tow options I would choose proud, wouldn’t you?
**
I can point out other traits they share with the general populice, that doesn’t make those traits evil. Many Nazi’s were religious, many were vegetarian. Just because a rapist has Ethnic pride doesn’t mean Ehtnic pride leads to rape.
You already are made proud of your heritage, it’s shown in history texts, in movies, on T.V.
We celebrate Thanksgiving, Columbus day, etc. You’re less likely to be pulled over by a cop, more likely to have a job, more likely to not live in a poor intercity, etc etc.
Again when faced with two options, this isn’t an ideal world, it is far better for someone to be proud rather than ashamed of their heritage.
Sorry, scratch. This one
was a big swing and a miss. (BTW, I usually see your point, I don’t always agree, but I see it.)The atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis * were specificaly targeted to an ethnic group*. That is what was said. The Nazis espoused a doctrine of racial seperatism and superiority. Saying that
ethnic pride is a part of that is obvious. Weather ethnic pride inevitably leads to that may be debateable. The fact that some Nazis were vegitarians, or prodistants or illuminati is totaly irrelevent to the discussion at hand. Also, you took issue with Distwalker saying:
Well, it is his opinion, and therefore he can say that it is a fact. Notice he says ** I think**.
Bucky said:
I think this is a key point. There was a time when people now identified as “white” were as fragmented into groups as anyone else. That time is past. I dream of a time when ALL Americans can expeirence a similar metamorphasis. After that, hopefully the whole world will go through the same thing, until we have one great big planet full of human beings.
pepperlandgirl said:
I WAS ready to take issue with this, but you followed with:
That’s the key. America isn’t
perfect, but I don’t believe there is anything better out there. As a historian, I would advise you never to forget the horrors of the past, but use them to ensure that they don’t happen again. Don’t dwell on them, learn and grow from them and DO EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO MAKE THINGS BETTER. I thought the rest of your post was spot on.
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!
You are right I flubbed that one. Let me give a better example. The Nazi’s were anti working class and anti-communist, they slaughtered communists. So I could make the point that it’s a small step from anti-communism to wide scale slaugther. Yes that is a bit far fetched, but so is the idea that ethnic pride leads to racism.
Hope that was better for ya WeirdDave
True. Go over my responses again. I noticed that he said i think, I just said that didn’t make it right. I can’t going around saying it’s a fact that Bill Clinton killed Ron Brown, I could be sued for libel.(btw, I don’t actually think this)
oldscratch. I BELIEVE that you could say " I think Bill Clinton killed Ron Brown", as long as you didnt try to justify it, prove it or anything else like that. It’s just what you think. Maybe I’m wrong, the law is not my strong suit. Any lawyers out there who can help? Jodih, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!
