[QUOTE=clairobscur]
I’m not fond of opening pit threads (it will be the second one in 5 years), and I’m not particularily good at rants, so I’ll keep this short.
Following the thread about the museum of tolerance to be built in Jerusalem and the “are muslims ever not outraged?” thread, I wanted to express my frustration regarding two reccurent issues on this board :
- The tendancy a number of posters have to throw subtle or not so subtle accusations of antisemitism when Israel (generally, but sometimes political figures) is criticized. There’s another example in a current thread in great debate that devolved into a “you’re an antisemite” thread. I’m really, really, fed up with this attitude.
Maybe you’re going to tell me that there are some basis to suspect such prejudices in such or such post. I would answer that a) Such assumptions are made on the basis of indirect hints, generally, “some antisemites say the same thing so you must be an antisemite too” b) I’ve seen many a time the same accusations made when the only “hint” is simply a criticism of Israel, or even of the party currently in charge in Israel, or a positive comment made about Israel’s ennemies. c) The equation Israel = Jews is generally not made by the alleged antisemite but by the poster making the accusation. Like in the “museum of Tolerance” thread when a poster suddenly turn into “we” mode to build a strawman about not being allowed to buid stuff or something similar. “We” as in “we, Israelis” or “We, staffers of the Wiesenthal center”? Nope, we as in “We Jews” . What I see here is that the poster is projecting his own perception (Israel= Jews=me) on the person he is accusing d) see my point 2) below
2) Where are these offended posters when various broad-assed statements are made about muslims and/or Arabs? Why aren’t they all over the thread throwing around accusations of racism? That’s secondary, though, to my main beef which is :
Strongly prejudiced comments about muslims and/or Arabs are made all the fucking time on this board. Ranging from the broad assed statements one can read in the “outraged muslims” thread to “we should nuke the shit out of them” statements which are, in my book, plainly calls to genocide.
I won’t say that nobody criticize such statements. Many posters do. But my problem is the double standard displayed. Let’s be clear : if we were to replace “Muslims” or “Arabs” by “Jews” or “Blacks” in all the threads where the two first words are used, there’s simply no way many posts we can read would be tolerated on this board. No fucking way. Not a snowball chance in hell.
So, my two comments about these two points :
Regarding 1), it’s quite simple. From now on, I will apply my own variation of the Godwin Law. I will assume that the slightest hint of an accusation of antisemitism, directed at me or at anybody else, which isn’t prompted by a direct and prejudiced statement specifically about Jews and only about Jews, not about Mr X who happens to be a Jew or an Israeli, means that the poster who made it lost the argument and after calling him on it, will completely ignore whatever else he has to say about the issue at hand. That’s for my own peace of mind, in order to avoid arguing with people who use this “debating tactic”, be it out of paranoïa, ignorance or malice.
Regarding 2) , a question to moderators and administrators of this board. I believe there’s a rule about not being an asshole. I would want to know when exactly this rule is broken when posters are displaying their prejudices against Muslims and Arabs? What is tolerated, what is not? How is the enforcement of this rule carried wrt posts about Muslims/Arabs by comparison with posts about Jews/Blacks? Would you tell me that I could, with full impunity, and without risking even a warning, post about Jews all the shit that is posted about Arabs?
Random example : could I freely state that the continued presence of Jews in our countries represent a danger for the survival of western civilization and western values? At which point displaying my utter ignorance about anything related to Jews by spouting nonsense about them in support of my antisemite prejudices would get me warned for “being a asshole”? If such a thing could happen, when exactly do you intend to do something about the unadressed rampant racism on this board? If it won’t happen, can you state clearly that displaying racial or ethnic prejudices is allowed on this board regardless of which group is targeted? And that it does not constitute assholish behavior?
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Let’s face it, Jews like me can no longer even say the word antisemitism without being accused of trying to steer blame away from Israel. I swear, I’ve heard or seen several conversations like this:
Person A: "When the Palestinians fight the Jews, it’s justified because they are weak, while the Israelis have all of the weapons. Also, Israel oppresses the Palestinians, but the Palestinians, along with the Arab world, don’t do anything wrong with regards to Israel. Their hatred towards Israel is not racial or religious, but only about the suffering of Palestinians. The Israelis have conspired to make sure that they hold power, and it is a shame that nations like Iran don’t have nuclear weapons, so they can be on an even foot with Israel. In fact, I don’t even think that Israel has a right to exist.
Person B: “What an anti-Semite! Your opinion is obviously biased.”
Person A: “JUST BECAUSE I’M ANTI-ISRAEL DOESN’T MAKE ME ANTI-SEMITIC BLAH BLAH BLAH…”
“You don’t have to be anti-Semitic to be anti-Israel” is the newest play in the anti-Israel playbook.
The fact that the original poster is ignoring is that just because anti-Semitism is not the same thing as anti-Israelism does not mean that they are not often related. Just because one is against gay marriage does not mean that one is anti-homosexual, but it does point towards it, and often goes along with it. The same is true of anti-Israelism and anti-Semitism.
To those who are biased in favor of the Arabs, it is easy to make statements that distort the middle east situation against the Israelis, and then back them up with “I’m not anti-Semitic.” But here’s the deal: if you are against the existence of Israel, or you go so far as to suggest that terrorists are freedom fighters, or you believe that Iran has a right to use nuclear weapons on Israel (if you believe Iran should have nukes, you believe Israel should be nuked), then you are the person who is pro-segregation but claims to not be anti-Black. You are the politician who claims to be pro-environment, while voting for bills that allow logging in national forests. The vast majority of Holocaust-deniers claim to not be anti-Semitic. For those with a decent bullshit-detector, it is easy to see what is really going on.
As for point number two, I am not familiar with all of the anti-Muslim and anti-Arab statements made on this board. I do have friends and family members who are more anti-Arab than me, and I disagree with many of their deragatory comments. Calls to drop bombs on Muslims for no good reason are prejudiced.
However, some of the statements that you criticize are not legitimate. For example, if I said that the existence of Jews in France was a threat to French society, I would be wrong. If I said that about Muslims, I would be right. There are a variety of conflicts going on in France with regard to Muslims, many of whom do not want to recognize any law other than Islamic law (ie French law). With extremely high birth rates and an unwillingness to recognize French law over Islamic law, and along with that an unwillingness to integrate into French society, they do pose a threat.
Is that racist? I don’t think so. I think it is a broad, but generally accurate assessment of Islam in France.
So, for 1, if you are going to take the allegation of anti-Semitism as a sign that you have won, then fine, I’ll call you an anti-Semite so that you can feel overjoyed by beating me (though I don’t believe that you are one). I believe that anti-Semitism is a hatred or bias against Jews based on race or religion, and that is not what you and most other people on this board represent. However, just because one is not an anti-Semite does not prevent individual comments from being anti-Semitic in nature. And most of all, the denial of anti-Semitism is not a legitimate defense of biased criticism of Israel. If you make biased, strongly anti-Israel comments, you are doing something very wrong, and blurbing “I’m not an anti-Semite, just anti-Israel” does not make your biased comments correct.
As for 2, yes, prejudice against Arabs and Muslims is wrong. However, a statement that is accurate (not biased) about Islam is not Islamophobic if backed up properly with evidence.
Joey
It may get me called a self-hating Jew, but hey, that would be par for the course.