The “Why do you hate Israel?” question is fast becoming the replacement for the overused “Why do you America?” cliche that was popularized by the right. The implications of both questions is that you’re either anti-Semitic or you’re a treasonous terrorist sympathizer. It’s a tool of intimidation. I have no respect for anyone who stoops to this level of discourse and expects to be taken seriously.
Those who are quick to accuse others of anti-Semitism don’t seem to realize how closely they are mimicking the shenanigans of Ann Coulter.
Interesting, I used the phrase “Why do you hate Israel?” as what I thought was an obvious joke in the Museum thread. I had never seen it used before. Where else have you seen it in use?
You have to understand what people are getting at when they call you an anti-Semite. Accusations of anti-Semitism serve the same purpose as statements like “why do you hate America”, “why do you support the terrorists”, and “why do you hate gay people.”
In other words, they essentially mean “your opinion is so stupid and blastedly out of the sphere of logic that I don’t know what to say to you anymore. I guess I’ll accuse you of supporting a universally-acknowledged-as-bad ideology!”
For example, I have said to a few people that Alexander Cockburn is an anti-Semite. Now, he probably isn’t an anti-Semite. But “Alexander Cockburn is an anti-Semite” is a shorter sentence than “Alexander Cockburn’s opinion’s are clearly biased against Israel and show virtually no acknowledgement of the Arab world’s problems. He may have religious or racial motivations, or he may simply support the underdog because some people just always support the underdog. I don’t know what is wrong with him, but I quite honestly wouldn’t mind if the douche bag jumped off a cliff.”
So, is it wrong to bring up the anti-Semite argument when criticism (except ones based on religious or racial hatred) are brought up? Yes. But it’s no worse than accusations of anti-Arab bias when honest critiques of the Arab world are brought up. It’s no worse than assuming someone hates homosexuals if they don’t support gay marriage.
There must be mutual understanding here. If I am to believe that you are not anti-Semitic when you say something that could be perceived as anti-Semitic, then you must understand that I am not necessarily Islamophobic if I say something that sounds anti-Muslim or anti-Arab.
It doesn’t have to be explicitly stated in order for the sentiment to be conveyed.
Check out this thread in GD if you want to get an idea of what and who I’m thinking about. But beware, if you haven’t been vaccinated against rabies you might want to do so if you decide to post.
I would say that probing possible implied prejudice is an important tool to be able to use, but that it is vastly over-wielded. I don’t, however, think it is never appropriate to suspect someone of subtly implying racist views. I think it is definitely possible to criticize Israel with an anti-Semitic subtext, and it is equally possible (and more common) to criticize it without.
You would be well advised to drop the term “Jewboy” from your lexicon of insults.* It is considered an ethnic slur, and not acceptable language (even when a right-wing Israeli cabinet minister uses it).**
So back off, Bondage-boy, and keep those boring posts as short as possible.
*I’ve never heard the variant “Muslimboy” but it doesn’t sound any better.
**It is however acceptable when uttered by Kinky Friedman.
I was just looking for some term that indicated the high esteem in which I hold both Muslims and Jews that get partisan under the collar every time the term “Israel” comes up. Think I nailed it.
There is no question that anti-Semitism (defined as irrational hatred of Jews) and irrational anti-Israeli sentiment are two vastly different things. Witness those ultra-Orthodox Jews who irrationally hate Israel, but presumably do not hate themselves.
However, the real question is not whether a particular POV demonstrates irrational hatred of Jews or of Israel. The real question is whether a particular POV describes a rational, objective critique of the chosen group or nation, or is simply an opportunity to bash or play on a preconceived dislike - whether it be for Jews, Muslims, Israel, the US, or whatever.
There is no question in my mind that many, many threads discussing Israel fall into this category. The “Museum” thread is perhaps not the best example, as it contained a potentially vaild criticism, but the fact is that none of those willing to criticize Israel in that case bothered to reply once it was shown on the facts that the criticism was misguided: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=388291&page=2
There is also no question in my mind that many threads discussing Muslim issues fall into the same category.
What is troublesome about the OP is the linking of the two. The implication, though unstated, is that there are two “teams”, as in a sports game, and that there is a zero-sum game in which respect for one equals disrespect for the other. In my opinion, it would be better if people did not use arguments based on irrational hatred at all, whatever the target; if people do, they should I think be called on it - and I don’t see why “irrationally hating Israel” is somehow better or more respectable than “irrationally hating Jews”, myself (or why either is to be favoured or disfavoured to “irrationally hating Muslims”).
Slight hijack: People get offended by perceived anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim statements all the time. But I have yet to hear an ounce of protest about the anti-Christian sentiment regularly displayed on these boards. “Invisible Pink Unicorn” and “Sky Fairy” are acceptable insults to a person’s beliefs. “Christian fundamentalists”, “bible thumpers”, “born again wackos” can be used without a murmur of protest.
Let’s just call a spade a spade (and no, that was not meant to be racially insensitive although I’m sure someone will claim I am racist): It is OK to insult Christians. They are part of that vast Right-wing conspiracy that will destroy western civilization. All of those middle-class Christian white males are the reason that people are oppressed.
Let’s go after the Jews too because they control the media.
Let’s go after the Muslims because they are the root of all that is wrong in the Middle East and are at the heart of terrorism.
Let’s go after the Buddhists, Hindus, animalists, pagans and any other religious group because they are delusional.
That will leave the atheists safe and untouched. Since there is a disproportionate amount of atheists on the SDMB as compared to the real world, I can only assume that would be acceptable to everyone here.
The next time someone makes an anti-Christian statement or slams a person because they mention God and not Og, I hope the moderators make a note of it.
Nice rant and fairly valid, but what does it have to do with the Mods? The complaints are by members about others members. The mods do not step in on this.
I do agree that it’s unfair to scream “anti-semitism!” every time someone criticizes policies by the Israeli government. They’re just people, and they make mistakes, and they get angry and do stuff they probably later wish they’d thought through better, like all governments do. Here in the U.S., we’re allowed to criticize governments, and not just our own, when we think they’ve done something stupid. It isn’t anti-semitism to critisize the Israeli government. And there are some things that government needs to answer for. (No, don’t bother typing “Cite?” because I’m not going to provide any. If you don’t know, then you’ve been hiding under a rock for the past 30 years.)
But mods do notify people in non-Pit situations when they are using racist commentary against another poster. They will warn someone (as was cited about Sevastopol earlier in this thread). If someone makes a comment that I’m one of those born-again morons because I support Intelligent Design or that I’m one of those oppressive Christian fundamentalists because I believe prayer in school is OK (I don’t but I am giving examples), that should be just as offensive to the mods as if someone said, “You Muslims are all out to kill ‘non-believers,” or, “You Jews want to wipe out the Palestinians.” It should not be tolerated in a non-Pit thread.
If anti-Christian sentiments are acceptable then let’s go whole hog and let all other racist and bigoted statements stand. All blacks are criminals, all Mexicans are illegal aliens, all French are cowards, all Irish are drunks, all gays are trying to recruit our kids, and all Christians want to oppress gays and pro-choice people and want to remove all talk of evolution.
Either you stop all “insensitive” statements and punish all equally or accept them all and don’t do squat.
This is not limited to SDMB. TV and movies regularly paint Christians as simpletons out of step with the world. Apocalyptic groups waiting for the second coming of Christ, pedophilic priests, abortion clinic fire bombers and polygamist Mormons are great entertainment but they are not in the majority. Dogma, The Last Temptation of Christ, Saved, Da Vinci Code can twist a faith and portray a perverted version and that is allowable. It is OK to insult Christians.
There is very little pro arab stance on these boards. if any.I do not know why. There is clear and vocal pro Israel stance. Any statement that can be construed as not accepting the Israeli line is in for a group beating.Insults and name calling will follow.
TV and movies also regularly paint government officials as simpletons out of step with the world. And well-educated white guys. And poorly-educated Southern white guys. And effete Californians. And plain, ordinary, run-of-the-mill Californians. And most white New Yorkers. And it is OK to “insult” all of those people. The First Amendment to the Constitution says so. It’s done because they’re easy targets. And so is Christianity.
First, the IPU and the FSM are parodies of religion in general, not Christianity. Unless you think Christians are the only ones who worship god.
Second, if you support Intelligent design, you are at least ignorant, and probably willfully ignorant, and should get called on it. If you support organized school-sanctioned Christian prayer (not just students praying, which no one is against and no one could do anything about anyway) you are marginalzing atheists and religious minorities, and you are endorsing an unconstitutional practice, and should get called on it. How this is bigotry escapes me.
The practice of American Fundamentalists crying “Help! help! I’m being oppressed” at the least criticism of their beliefs is really irritating, especially given the vast amount of political power this group wields.
First off, what is wrong with anti-antisemitism ? Do you really have a problem with that? As far as I’m concerned that means pro-semitism. I have a problem with that.
Secondly, to the best of my knowledge I have never come across a specific anti-arab post on this board. Certainly I have come across anti-Islamic posts and I have been part of that. There is a big difference. I have a problem with antiarabism.
There are a considerable number of Christian and Druse Arabs etc who are not part of the Islamic problem. No one says they are a problem.
As I’ve said, I’m anti Islamic. It is a belief system.
You may be anti- Republican or conservative. More power to you. Hell, you may be anti-Christian like a number of posters on this board. Feel free, as we are all wrestling with the right and wrong approach to life and opposed to other belief systems.
I regard Islam as the biggest threat mankind has ever faced. It is the most powerful ideology the world has ever seen, and in modern times the most destructive. It expresses anti human rights, anti gay rights, anti women’s rights and embraces pre middle ages justice.-It endorses lawful distinction between believers and unbelievers.
Ever heard a muslim decry the practice of stoning ?
Just to start, have you seen Dogma? I am guessing you did not, if you are including it in this post. Dogma was not anti-church. It was not pro-church either.
You will find that the broad brush is not well tolerated here at the SDMB against any group. Even Republicans. The posters who regularly bash Christians with a Broad Brush approach, regularly get pitted for doing so.
Jim {Green Republican and Agnostic or extremely lasped Roman Catholic.}
You don’t know why? Maybe it’s the Munich Olympics, bombing of buses and cafes in Israel, take over of US Embassy in Iran (I know, Persian not Arab), bombing of USS Cole, oppression of women, fatwahs against authors and film makers, murder of film maker, first bombing of WTC, heads of govt calling for destruction of Israel, 9/11, slitting the thoats of captives, and murder of Nun.
The posters who regularly bash Christians with a Broad Brush approach, regularly get pitted for doing so.