Except Arabs.
Yes all Arabs support these positions and none could be relied upon to be open minded. The arabs all think alike and hate Israel. Must be nice to be able to identify enemies collectively and put them into such easy groups to attack. Most arabs were not alive during the olympics. The population is dominated by children.
I don’t think that’s true. We’re generally quite tight about catching out uses of the compostional fallacy. The thread on outraged Muslims had not only your act of pointing out that logical fallacy, but several others’ as well.
I’m not saying that anti-Arab bias is always dealt with, or that broad-brushing is always ignored when Arabs are the target… but personally I don’t remember any threads I’ve been in where it was given a pass.
YMMV.
Actually, that’s a fair point. When I’m the one doing the pointing out, it feels like the thing is being neglected, but of course to others, there’s at least one person saying it. I stand corrected, even though I still think the volume is somewhat lower regarding this particular subject.
It is just silly to say that one can not state an opinion about something unless it applies to “all” of the members of the group.
“I don’t like vegetables”
“Have you tried every vegetable?”
“Well I don’t like peas”
“Have you tried every pea grown in every farm?”
“Republicans are anti-tax”
“I know a republican who supports higher taxes”
“It’s a nice day”
“Not in Antarctica”
When people refer to Muslimes or Arabs, just try substituting “a majority, or large number, of people that are of Muslim/Arab background and live in the middle east”.
In any case, I was responding to why people have anti-arab feelings, not whether they should. I suspect it has more to do with what people see every day in the news. It’s pretty ironic; American’s (i.e., a majority or large number of Americans) have historically been fairly anti-semitic. I’ve had jewish friends tell me stories about people in the south thinking they had horns. It’s only the fact that (some) violent members of the Islamic community have again and again performed such horrible acts against Israelis and Americans that made (some) people pro-Israel. If a bunch of Jews, financed by Israel, had crashed planes into the WTC, and (some) Jews around the world had danced in the street, then I think it’s fair to say that (some) Americans would have anti-Jewish sentiments.
I think even the worst threads of frothing “A-rab” hating still get checked by others on the board. It is important to remember that not all Muslims and Arab and not all Arabs are Muslims. It is important that to know that most Muslims to not riot, murder and kill. It is important to know not to treat a person based solely on their religion or lack of it. I think many posters protest attempts to forget these basic facts. People on all side of the political spectrum will shout down a poster who does ignore obvious truths.
Are there more defenders for Israel, possibly, but maybe anti-Israeli rants just attract more defenders as there is a larger percentage of Pro-Israelis posters than Pro-Palestinian as an example.
Hell, I get tired of fighting the “Republican = Evil” tag. Republican does not mean pro-Bush, it means I do not share some of your political beliefs. But this board leans heavy to the left and sometimes moderates like me get painted by the broad brush stroke. Strange as I am basically a social liberal who is very anti-Bush.
Jim
Iraq and Iran had a horrible 8 year war. Iraq has turned into a civil war between 3 factions. They do not eveh get together enough to fight common enemies. Which arabs have you chosen to hate or are they all evil to you.
I have Jewish friends that have never been accused of having horns. If they had how would that anecdote prove anything. I do not accept that the majority of America is or has been anti semetic.
Incidents do not prove a group is guilty of anything. That is bigotry.
He’s saying he’s objecting specifically to people being anti-antisemitic but anti-Arab at the same time. In other words, people who say that it’s wrong to generalize and discriminate against the Jews, and then turn around and do the same towards Arabs.
DanBlather, as far as I can tell, by your argument it is indeed easy for Muslims to believe the US is specifically waging war against Islam. This fallacy of composition (thanks, FinnAgain) is what many of the uneducated Islamic mobs and potential terrorists think by, and I can’t see any difference between your side of looking at the argument and theirs:
(Some) Americans invade Islamic countries. (Some) Americans bomb the living shit out of Islamic civilians. (Some) Americans torture prisoners in Islamic countries. (Some) Americans shoot families after having raped their daughter.
All the above is of course wrong because it’s a gross exaggeration, but about as convincing as your argument.
I also think opinions such as yours are based on not actually having known many Muslims. I have and I do, and out of all the dozens I’ve known they have with one exception been kind, decent, upstanding, peaceful people. I’ve only ever met one whose opinions worried me - and he was all talk and never did anything about his feelings. (Though perhaps things may have changed now.)
I actually don’t hate arabs. I do, however, hate Islamic fundamentalism. Right now it seems to be the worst, most hateful, and most violent movement. Sure Iraq and Iran hate each other, but they hate Israel more.
As for historical US anti-semitism:
So do I. Massively.
But don’t you see how counterproductive it is to tar innocent people who, right or wrong, feel victimized, with the same brush as the motherfuckers we actually want to defeat?
That would be a pretty weird way to use the term “Muslim”, though. If you’re using “Muslims” to mean “a majority or large number of people that are of Muslim background and live in the middle east”, then you’re actually leaving out most of the world’s Muslim population.
Heck, there are more Muslims in India, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan and China than there are in the entire Middle East. The average Middle Eastern Muslim country has about 2 to 20 million Muslim inhabitants, while India, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan and China each have over 100 million of them. (And that’s not even counting all the Muslims in sub-Saharan African countries, either.)
If people are really saying “Muslims” in general when they only mean some subset of Middle Eastern Muslims, that’s so inaccurate as to be downright misleading. It would be kind of like using the term “Jews” to refer only to Jews in Europe and Russia, leaving out the (much larger) Jewish populations of Israel and the US.
[QUOTE=jjimmI also think opinions such as yours are based on not actually having known many Muslims. I have and I do, and out of all the dozens I’ve known they have with one exception been kind, decent, upstanding, peaceful people. I’ve only ever met one whose opinions worried me - and he was all talk and never did anything about his feelings. (Though perhaps things may have changed now.)[/QUOTE]
I actually do know many muslims and I think they are decent people as well. It is trite, but I have many Arab friends. I also know Druse, Zoroastrians, and Christians from the middle east.
To deny the enormous reach of Isalamic fundamentalism is simply to bury your head in the sand. One can be a practicing muslim in america and israel. In my former company there was a room set aside with prayer rugs. Contrast that to Saudi Arabia where it is illegal to bring in personal bibles.
There is nothing inherent about being arab or muslim that makes one violent, any more than christaianity inherently makes on an abortion clinic bomber. There is simply, in this day and age, a greater percentage of people that use islam to justify horrible acts of violence than there is of other religions/beliefs. A few hundred years ago it was Christianity’s turn to burn infidels and perform genocide.
We want to defeat? Are you serious? Just how do you defeat Islamic terrorism? Its roots are in Islam. The entire medium from which this scourge on mankind springs from is this religion. The adherants to this religion are not permitted to side with unbelievers against believers. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslims have no desire to cut anyone’s neck from ear to ear, but if we hear of any muslim arguing against such, its either taqiyya or an argument pertaining to the effectiveness towards the pursuit of an Islamic world.
Osama is still the hero. Not Bush. If you had a choice between the two to lead your people, who would you choose? Who would the muslims choose ?
I would choose John McCain. Both of your choices are very bad. I will concede that Bush might be the lesser of two evils, but I am not sure I could prove it.
Jim
Well fuck, Flying Dutchman. If the religion itself is the enemy (though I don’t recall a global threat from fundamentalist Islam being taught in history before 1979), and given that you’re not advocating genocide, then we’re pretty much fucked, aren’t we? Because it’s not going to go away.
Bit of a defeatist view, isn’t it?
You are right. Since 79 the genie has popped out and it ain’t going away. The muslims have their enemies on the run since Russian Afghanistan everywhere. Vietnam and 1980 in Iran didn’t help either. My answer though drastic is to pull back and isolate ourselves from them. As a start, that is what they want too. The western world and the Islamic world can only get along on Islamic terms. Any defense of our interests in their sphere is only a provocation to them. And they are easily provoked. Just quote a 14th century emporer.
It is unfortunate, but the present humanistic attitude of western societies which most of us here count on and enjoy is still relatively new historically. It has been only 60 years since two of our allies, Germany and Japan have been able to shed archaic attitudes. Its been less than 100 years since we didn’t bat an eylash over the loss of thousands of troops on a single day of battle. We really can’t fight a war any more, so we need to look at alternatives to preserve our preffered way of life.
I also have never once seen this uttered by a conservative. It is a cliche of liberals, saying what they want Conservatives to believe.
If is a cliche, surely you can pull up three or four examples.
Dude, I’m not being literal. Have you ever heard anyone ask without irony “Why do you hate America?” I haven’t, but that message comes through loud and clear when dissent against the government is portrayed as giving aid and comfort to the enemy or being related to one’s patriotism.
Same thing with Israel. No one may explicitly say “Why do you hate Israel?” but when criticism about the country’s actions is spun as being “anti-Israel”, the subtext is there.
Here’s some past discussions where “anti-Israel” is used in this manner.
Are you talking about the same Dogma as me? Kevin Smith’s Dogma. The one that has the line, “You Catholics don’t celebrate your faith, you mourn it.” The one where Bethany says, “I think God is dead,” and her friend at the abortion clinic replies, “The sign of a true Catholic.” The one where Cardinal Glick, the creator of “Catholicism Wow!” and Buddy Christ, says that they wish they could hook ‘em young, like the tobacco industry. That movie ripped into Catholicism like a combine through a wheat field. If you didn’t think that was an anti-church and a condemnation of its practices, then you need to see it again with your eyes open.
I’m Catholic and I love the movie because it is irreverent and does point out massive flaws in organized religion. I also loved Saved. Last Temptation was mildly entertaining and Da Vinci Code was a better book than a movie (and it was a goofy book). Monty Python’s Meaning of Life and Life of Brian are two of my favorite movies (Every sperm is sacred…).
I’m not thin skinned about my faith. I know that the Catholic Church is out of step with the modern world in many respects. The same is true of many organized religions.
I was merely pointing out that slamming Christianity, in particular Catholicism is an acceptable prejudice in American culture. Really pay attention to movies and TV and see how many times the serial killer or rapist has a crucifix either on their neck or in their home. How many pedophile priests do you see versus how many pedophile rabbis? (this is an issue that is rarely reported on in the
press ).
NBC will be showing Madonna’s concert this fall and will include her crucifixion performance because they don’t see anything inappropriate with it.
But they are insults to monotheists nonetheless. And I am a part time Pastafarian so don’t you dare claim that the FSM is a parody. The Church of the Sub Genius is a parody. So don’t insult Him or you will be struck down by His Noodly Appendage. Ramen.
Organized school-sanctioned prayer? No. Moments of silence? Yes. But schools are frequently challenged because it could be considered a moment of silent prayer, even when state legislation or school board rules specify that the moment is for strictly secular reasons.
Intelligent design is a variation on creationism and is suspect on countless levels. But to call someone ignorant who could provide examples that point to a planned universe, then you have closed off debate and have become ignorant yourself. Open, rational discussion with a person who can provide facts and data is better than calling someone “willfully ignorant.”
So African-Americans should shut up because they have Rev. Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition or Rev. Al Sharpton? Those are incredibly powerful political groups that wield their power like a club against anyone who gets in their way. Jesse is constantly sticking his nose into situations where he is not invited and turning minor news stories into his political flag.
Act-up should be quiet too along with GLAAD. The JDL is incredibly powerful but they should close their mouths too. If a group is being insulted, it doesn’t matter who they are or whether they are a minority or not. They are still entitled to complain about the abuse and get the apologies they deserve or feel that they are entitled to.
Oh, and that applies to Muslims who feel that they were insulted by the leader of a major religion. Or do you think they should just shut up, too? You might not think it was an insult, but obviously they did.