I am looking for a new place to hang my hat and am rather taken with this particular offering at the brand-new Four Seasoons hotel/condo in Toronto. For anyone interested, there is a bit more information about the project here and an executive summary here. For anyone unfamiliar with the brand, the Four Seasons is widely-considered the preeminent luxury hotel brand in the world. So the opportunity for me here would to have very good amenities (24/7 valet, room service, active security team, giant pool/spa) but in exchange only have a fraction of the living space I could get in normal condos.
While it would be nice to have twice as much space, I am confident I could live quite happily in 950 square feet for the foreseeable future (few years) and I think I value the amenities and cachet a lot.
Final bit of info: Most units in this building start at 2 million and go up to 30 million, so what I’m buying is a quirky little space (cheapest unit in the most expensive building in the city) that wasn’t even intended to be a condo when the project was initially designed. It’s on a low floor, no balcony and uninteresting view. But I could order freshly-made chocolate chip cookies anytime day or night 365 days of the year. And housekeeping, masseurs and pretty-much any other service else I could desire is just a touch of a button away.
So given my taste, does anyone else think this purchase might not be entirely irrational?
If it’s just you who’ll be living there, and you value the amenities and the location, and you have the money to spend and you’re not looking at it as an investment or a way to flip a property, why not?
My only reservation would be the volatility of the high-rise condo market. It’s really easy to overbuild them in metropolitan areas, at which point the price is driven down dramatically. It happened in Atlanta (among many others) about 5-6 years ago, and there are still a ton of empty units on the market.
On the other hand, you’re looking at a great brand name within a more stable price point. How have they done in other markets?
My simplistic real estate impression has always been this. Cheap property has a base value that is mostly based on reality. The higher the price, the less “real” the value. And the more likey it is to be volatile.
Well, from say the Suzie Orman perspective, a purchase like that would be basically like buying a yacht or a luxury car. Which is to say, can you pay for it entirely out of savings ? If you do so, will you still have 18 months of living expenses in savings plus fully funded retirement accounts, and the holding costs of the real estate (condo fees, taxes) will still leave you adding money to your savings each month ? If so, then go nuts, you can afford it. Otherwise, no, you can’t afford it.
I’ve known many, many people who bought condos in new buildings, or new houses, or new units in town complexes. It NEVER WORKS OUT. There are always an endless list of frustrations, of developer lies, months of shit not working, not being finished. You’re paying a gigantic premium to buy a condo that will be insanely frustration for a year or three.
I am sure some people have stories of new units that went great. I’ve never heard them.
Perhas more to the point; buying a home because it’s “Shiny” is quite literally the stupidest financial decision a human being can make, short of drug addiction. That is absolutely, positively the last thing you should pay for, because it is always overpriced by a factor of ten. You can make a place shiny with two thousand dollars and a weekend of hard work.
I’ve heard a few. But only a few. Most often, I’ve heard of projects that were not completed on time, leaving the buyers scrambling to find something to fill the interim.
OP, be very careful, and review your contract carefully.
Before the real estate crash, I was involved in pre-construction of a Rosewood hotel that never got off the ground. Probably pretty similar level of finish as a 4S, and was going to sell for a similar price point ($1000-1500/foot). My impression was that they were way more serious than the average developer, and were willing to put in more money per foot than the average spec developer by far. It was made very clear that the plans and specs were absolute, and there was no builder discretion whatsoever.
That said, I would still have a building inspector comb the pace for defects or unfinished tidbits. And honestly assess how much the monthly fees/dues are going to affect you, because I’m sure they’re high.
I’m still getting stuck on the $779 per month maintenance fee. On top of whatever the mortgage is for a million-dollar space. For a 950 square foot condo. I’ve stayed at Four Seasons hotels, I get that they are luxe. Does this maintenance fee incude the “housekeeping, masseurs and pretty-much any other service else I could desire”?
I live in an 850 square foot house on almost half an acre. It costs me about $80 a month to get that mowed weekly and I can’t fathom what services, security or upkeep would be worth the remaining $699 per month.
That said, if you can afford it, go for it. Why not? Are you trying to justify the cost as an investment?
Well, most Dopers are Astronaut Cowboy Millionaires who eat pussy for 90 minutes twice a day, cook like Bobby Flay, and are Obama’s third cousin. They can afford it.
I have similar tastes, and I’d love to be able to do something like this, some day; I’d have to comfortably have the money, to the point where the extra payments on mortgage and monthly maintenance fee wouldn’t mess with the rest of my lifestyle or my retirement savings. If I was so lucky to be in that financial situation, where it wouldn’t affect me at all… it would still be about 95% irrational, I think. So evaluate your situation, but if you have to consider the cost at all, yeah, I’m going with irrational. Sorry, sounds like a sweet place.
Its hard to tell because the floorplan gif on the website is a mess (and if you are selling $2M properties, you should be able to afford a decent scan of the floorplan), but it looks like the space is invested in the wrong areas for a small space. Too much bathroom, not enough storage. Not that a small space is horrible - I just sold a really cute 600 sq ft house that was about perfect for one person, but I wouldn’t put extra space in a bathroom.
If you haven’t lived in that small a space before, you may want to rent a small space before you invest. Its a lifestyle.
This is how I know I’m a true New Yorker… I looked at that price and maintanence fee and was all “Grab it! It’s a bargain!”
Not that I could afford it, myself. But depending on the location and amenities, it sounds reasonable. And 950 square feet isn’t “small.” Come visit this city and I’ll show you small.
$779 per month should buy an awful lot of chocolate chip cookies. I mean, are you going to be paying room service rates for these cookies, or are a certain number of meals/massages/snacks included? Can you hit the continental breakfast every morning? Grab a coffee on your way through the lobby? Is daily/weekly maid service included?
Concierge service is available to anyone, no matter what building you live in, you just have to open an account.
That said, there are some people for whom it is worthwhile, and you may well be one of them. My own daughter is only five, but she’s certain that she wants to live in a hotel in a place with a balcony, in the center of a big city. I fully believe she will never change her mind about this.
If you work 70 hours per week, and need to preserve your down time at all costs, then go for it. My #1 caveat is that folks in this category are generally also very social. Will you have the space you need in order to entertain in the manner you prefer? Might you fall into the “everything I need is right here” abyss and stop finding new places and meeting new people?
And don’t answer this to anyone but yourself: If your current source of income dried up, how long would you have before you were desperate? If it’s less than 18 months, you shoud really stop right there. A unit like that will take a long time to sell, and the lifestyle will eat through your savings very quickly if your salary or investments should take a nosedive.
Consider how much luxury you can purchase with a lower-cost home in a well-maintained building. You’d be able to buy more space, richer furnishings, and a monthly delivery from Schwans or your local equivalent. Open a concierge account for other extras, I’m betting you’ll end up with more variety and a higher standard of living.
