I'm hard pressed to consider 20-50 year old American women as having been culturally oppressed

I’m 34, and I’ve certainly experienced what you’re talking about. It wasn’t an everyday occurence, but it happened. I did get a lot of the business about appropriate roles for women from my parents. When I told them I was getting engaged, the first thing they asked me, after “Do you have the date set?” was “Are you going to stop working?” (“Uh, no.” “Well, how does *he *feel about that?”). But in addition to the “sit down and shut up” messages, there are also the “girls are dumb” messages that undermine girls’ confidence that they have anything worth standing up and saying in the first place.

For instance: In high school, I was one of a handful of sophomores taking a junior-level advanced algebra class. I had always enjoyed the puzzle-solving nature of math, and I didn’t like just memorizing a formula until I knew how it worked, and how it was derived. So when the teacher presented the quadratic formula as, “Here’s how you solve for x if you have an equation of the form ax2 + bx + c. Memorize it,” I asked him about it after class. He didn’t get what I was asking, and I probably wasn’t explaining myself well. He kept trying to walk me through the formula, plugging in values, to show me that it did indeed work, which was even more frustrating, because clearly, he thought I didn’t understand how to do it. I kept saying things like, “No, I know - but, let’s say I didn’t memorize it: how would I figure out the formula?” to which he’d reply, “You can’t - you just have to know it.” After much back and forth, he finally said, “Look, don’t get frustrated - girls sometimes have trouble with math.”

Then, there was my AP History teacher who made blonde jokes and comments about “ditzy girls”, both in general and toward specific students, myself included, even though I was consistently the best student in his class.

I’ve gotten similar comments from bosses at various jobs, even though I’m pretty smart and a hard worker.

And I hesitate to even say here “I’m smart” or “I was in an advanced class”, because while on the one hand, it demonstrates that these negative comments about my intelligence were patently absurd, on the other, it has the potential to imply that they would have been acceptable, or at least justified, if I weren’t smart. Indeed, when I would object to the teacher who made blonde jokes by pointing out that I was no dummy, he would say, “Well, obviously, you’re an exception.” I’ve heard that a lot, actually, from classmates, coworkers, and friends: they’re not saying I’m dumb, just, you know, women. In general.

Holy crap.

I think you mistyped 1886.

The My Super Sweet 16 and Bridezilla crowds could honestly stand to endure a little oppression, for the sake of society’s collective sanity.

Tim Allen: “Women now have choices. They can be married, not married, have a job, not have a job, be married with children, unmarried with children. Men have the same choice we’ve always had: work, or prison” [NOPARSE]:)[/NOPARSE]

I wouldn’t quibble with you too much over this. The traditional male role is more confining than contemporary female roles. It’s just that the traditional female role has been/is being quite deliberately (and IMO correctly) broken down. Traditional male roles have, in comparison, not changed a whole lot.

Not too long ago, my wife asked me if I had ever witnessed an instance of sexism in my academic/business dealings. I haven’t. She was asking specifically because something she read recently (similar to that linked by the OP) put the bug in her head.

She hadn’t seen any instances of “female oppression” either, and was checking with me to see if her perception could possibly be that far off. (Actually, she’s had it go the other way if anything; people and/or groups to promote women in science and the like.)

Neither of us doubt that it does happen…just that, anecdotally, neither of us have ever actually been witness to it.

I think a lot of the answer to the OP comes in the first response. Modern man and woman love to exercise their finely tuned sense of personal entitlement. Everything is part of some plot or other.

I work with a guy whose nickname is “Noisy”. In conversations, arguments or debates if things are going badly for him he begins to bluster and drown out all other opinion. When he does this to me I don’t think it is because I am male.

At work today some of the guys were discussing the teams for the corporate golf day coming up. No-one asked me what team I wanted to be on. I didn’t think this was because I am male but rather because I haven’t played for years. One of the guys had to butt in to mention that he would like to play and even though he is male they found him a spot.

Many years ago I used to work in sales. God it is a pain dealing with couples. If one member of the couple isn’t there and clear about the deal being made you can be sure they will ruin it later. Another important thing to keep in mind is that you should try to focus the presentation on the partner making the decisions. It’s usually the one that set the whole thing up.

I recently helped my mom buy a car. To the salespeople’s credit, for most of the process they treated my mom respectfully and speak to us in equal terms. It was my mom’s purchase, so they directed all financial comments to her. They discussed technical aspects of the engine to us both in detail, never assuming that my mom doesn’t know her way around an engine. Or, upon reflection I think it was actually they didn’t assume that I knew anything about anything, so explained how stuff works.

But when they tried to close the deal they started talking all “loud stereo and shiny knobs” to me, and “side airbags and safety ratings to her”.

Definitely, and I definitely catch myself being sexist in instances where I’d never let the same sort of comment slide if it were in regards to a woman. Calling a guy a pussy is useless – it makes it seem like being compared to a woman is bad (or, laughingly, that vaginas are weak). Telling a guy to ‘Be a man’ is silly – a man according to whom? Why no ‘Be a woman’?

I do think it’s harder for people to see men’s roles as oppressive when they’ve traditionally granted them some sort of freedom – traveling abroad, earning money, holding powerful positions, going to school out of state or country, having affairs, joining all-male clubs – whereas women’s roles were literally confining (child bearing and rearing, receiving gentlemen callers, tending to the home). Mad Men does a great job of showing how men’s roles were and are apt to produce unhappy conformers. Feminism’s no good if it gives women the freedom to enter typically male domains and have typically male hobbies and attitudes if men don’t get the same freedom in terms of ‘feminine’ traits and domains. The trick is figuring out how to make these desirable and shame-free.

WOMEN get shortchanged in storybooks? That’s a laugh.

If ANYONE is shortchanged in storybooks and TV, it’s us Dads, who are routinely portrayed as helpless bumblers who can’t pour our kids a bowl of cereal without burning down the house.

It’s interesting that you picked that Salon article as an example of women playing the victim card. I read it very differently - a question about why an overwhelming majority of Wikipedia writers are men (which would not be inherently expected if you consider that women are well represented in the field of education at all levels, which implies they are not uninterested in expertise or sharing knowledge), some possible cultural explanations (including the suggestion that women tend not to be as interested in “detail-heavy nitpicking”), and a call to women to get involved. I must have missed the part where she asked for a government task force to enforce a strict 50-50 ratio in all Wikipedia contributions. Or even just the quote that told men to shut up and stop writing.

I think the article’s actually a great example of how deeply ingrained social roles effect women. I’m lucky that I’ve never been told to stay at home and make babies, but I have certainly felt the effect of systems that were developed by men. Whether by nature or nurture, I agree that women tend to be more conciliatory and less confrontational in discussions than men, and that women should just learn to fight with the men is made clear throughout our education. Hell, academia is structured on the pointless argument. :smiley: (My precise topic of study has actually been developed by women, and almost all the important names in the field are women. The literature review sections are strikingly different for their lack of tearing down other people working on the same topic.) I don’t think it’s necessarily always fair to blame men for actively oppressing women, but I don’t see the need to stop discussing gender as a category - like wondering why women are less inclined to write and edit Wikipedia articles. And gender includes men, too, of course.

To be fair I think that this mostly applies to sitcoms and commercials that are mini-sitcoms. Which male character on, say, Law and Order is the bumbling idiot? Or on 24? And I think that the reason it happens on comedies is because helpless men are funny. Know what else is funny? Little old ladies that are horny. And smart alec kids. And moms that drink too much.

Archetypes of comedy are far different than archetypes of drama.

You should never mention a lady’s age!

But seriously, what can we do about this except not let it affect us and not participate in it? Good for you, TruCelt for following your own desires instead of fitting into the mold you were expected to fill. I think every such instance is another brick out of the wall. The wall doesn’t have infinite bricks.

Enjoy,
Steven

I think it’s quite telling that almost all of the responses from women in this thread who are replying with some variation of “Of course sexism exists you sexist man you” are coming from women who are over 35.

I’m 27 and it’s amazing to me that anyone would think schools (especially high schools) are anything less than completely equal. More high school age girls go to college than high school age boys and honors classes are routinely made up mostly of girls. Not to mention, at my high school, the valedictorian and saludatorian were both girls. #3 was a guy, but he never had a shot for either of the top two spots.

I think its rare, but it does happen.

I’m 42. I had “one of those” high school math teachers who came right out and said “girls aren’t good at math.” He wouldn’t call on us. If we asked a question, he made fun of us. We’d get the boys in the class to ask the questions for us, because if a boy asked the question - well, let me help you understand that, son…

I just told the story of my high school superintendent who, when we had lunch because I was graduating at the top of my class, wanted to know if I had a boyfriend, and what sports he played, and never asked me where I was going to college or what I was majoring in.

I’ve told the story how in diversity training I heard a man - around 1989, a VP of a big corporation, say he wouldn’t promote women “they go home and have babies anyway.”

It seems to have gotten MUCH better - although I currently work with a guy who I suspect has big issues with sexism he doesn’t have any authority. I’ve never felt that my daughter was particularly disadvantaged - well, except this summer…

My son plays baseball. For $85 the boys get refs, lighted fields, helmets, hats, t-shirts, extra equipment (bats, gloves) if the boys didn’t have it, pants, four coaches (volunteer, but the coaches kids don’t pay the $85), an end of year tournament. The coaches got a day of training with a former pro on how to coach.

My daughter plays softball. Its cheaper. $65. One coach. T-shirts that didn’t even fit the girls. No hats. Terrible fields without lights that were not maintained. No refs. No…well, they got t-shirts that didn’t fit - and we paid $20 less.

I think it was Tim Allen, that paragon of What Man Is, who once said, “A man’s options are work, or…prison, basically.”

Or maybe it’s because we can read, and the OP specifically mentioned 20-50 year old women?

My husband is about 50, and he was in high school when the girls were finally *allowed to wear pants *to (public) school. The three smartest students in his high school class were girls, none of whom went to college.

Maybe **astro **wants to revise his argument down to 20-30 year old women. I think that would at least open things up to a potentially interesting discussion. At 30 to 50, there’s way too much data out there that he just seems to have missed.

I didn’t claim she was telling men to shut up, my point was the more or less taken for granted assumption that modern women in the US, while growing up and through the process of becoming social adults, are somehow discouraged and prevented from participating and expressing themselves in educational and social contexts. This is the specific quote I’m talking about -

In my observation (again I’m 51) this assumption is largely BS for US women aged 20-50. It’s true there may be the occasional sexist jackass or clueless teacher, but in my observation 99.99% of teachers treated girls with the same respect (or lack thereof) as boys in terms of encouraging class participation and being called on to answer questions.

Women and men are wired with different interaction styles, and a lot of this is mediated more by nature than nurture. It’s less about challenge and confrontation and more about working together and conciliation. It isn’t better or worse it’s just different. Trying to find some oppression bogey to explain why US women are less likely to do this is both intellectually lazy and disingenuous.

I’ll be 52 next week. When I was in high school in Missouri, I was told that I WAS going to take typing and home ec. And that the year of home ec was going to be one of my two required science classes. Girls WERE NOT permitted to take any Shop class, wood or metal, because women didn’t use shop, they shopped, get it? When I moved to Texas, I had to take that second year of science, as the home ec DIDN’T count as a year of science in Texas, it was just another elective. I was still pushed into taking typing. I was allowed to take wood shop, but the teacher told all of us that he had never given an A in that class to a girl. As it happened, I did deserve an A, and he gave it to me, and congratulated me on my skill and hard work.

I’ve been refused a job, or a shift, because I was female.

But yeah, I was culturally oppressed as a female. My daughter hasn’t had nearly the experiences like this that I have.

And the servers around here still tend to hand the check to my husband when we’re out together, who promptly passes it over to me. I’ve been tempted to tip 10%, and leave a note that the server shouldn’t just assume that the male pays the bills.

See post #24.