I'm hard pressed to consider 20-50 year old American women as having been culturally oppressed

Great Debates
1

I keep bumping into the assertion by some female journalists and authors, that is obviously mean to be taken as a non-debatable hard fact, that American women 50 and younger have been raised in an oppressive cultural and educational environment that taught them to keep their heads low and not assert themselves.

Here this nonsense is once again and honestly I’ve had enough of this little social oppression fantasy.
I’m 51 and I have been in the US school system across multiple states and jurisdictions from the 4th grade all the way through to a BS degree. Based on my observations of the educational process that I was a direct participant in, girls have never been told to keep quiet, be non-assertive, not answer questions or otherwise be intellectually submissive by a teacher or administrator. Never, not once in any form or fashion have I observed girls being ignored or treated dismissively when the teacher asked for answers or encouraged class participation.

It’s quite true that women in mixed gender company may (in general but not always) be less overtly confrontational than men. Men often enjoy arguing and debating to the point that every horse is beaten dead, women being wiser generally seem to favor conciliation, but this has (IMO) far more to do with nature than nurture in that the educational and social nurturing I observe doesn’t seem to differentially reward women for being passive or submissive.

What is the basis for this continuing assertion of being socially oppressed when every index indicates that girls outperform boys educationally virtually across the board with the exception of some quantitative skills sets.

It’s time to stop trying to play this particular victim of society card.

2

I don’t know if I totally agree with the concept - but I can think of 3 subtle examples I’ve observed which may suggest why this perception exists. FTR I’m 33.

Watching a US political debate in the last couple of years (don’t remember the participants, but not the presidential election) and the male participant would not allow the female clear space to talk. Instead, he talked over her in a louder, deeper voice until she had no choice but to stop talking, since she couldn’t be heard. This happened repeatedly.

At work a couple of years ago, over lunch with a group of colleagues and agency people who proceeded to plan a game of golf (a key networking opportunity) for those at the table, excepting the lone female (me).

I work at a bank - and have heard numerous stories of our financial planners and small business specialists directing conversation to the husband in a couple’s consultation - or asking a female whether they should reschedule a meeting to find out what the husband thought about a financial decision (even though there may have been no male partner).

Subtle, but there is still a suggestion of male dominance if you are sensitive to that sort of thing. Which many women are, and many men aren’t.

3

I’m about your age (50) and don’t remember feeling oppressed as a young girl/woman in any school setting. Then again, I’m not one to be oppressed or suppressed very easily. I’d just keep talking. I was the one with straight A’s accompanied by “a little chatty in class”.

I grew up with Billie Jean King v Bobby Riggs and a lot of the “women are just as good as men” stuff. I think a lot of that did influence younger women to be stronger and stand up for themselves. I can’t say there wasn’t a teacher who may have favored the boys in some way, but it never stopped me if there was. It would have propelled me to more action and to do better than any boy in the class, which I usually did.

But I do agree with Girl from Mars, that in adult society, there are subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) ways in which men are favored and it ticks me off every time. They are assumed to be the more mechanically inclined, the more financially astute, the controller of the decisions in various circumstances.

I’ve had waitresses all but ignore me in favor of asking my male companion what to order, if everything was alright and when the man would like to pay the bill.

I once called about a tv that had gone out after a lightning storm. I just wanted to get an idea if it would be worth fixing or if it was blown completely. The man I spoke to couldn’t get past insisting “it’s not plugged in”. Even though it was, I told him it was, I was looking at the plug and had already checked to make sure it was in securely. Nope, if the TV wasn’t working it was because “it wasn’t plugged in”. I guarantee you if I had been a male, this would not have happened.

I’ve been spoken down to by mechanics, even though I’ve personally replaced brakes, fuel pumps, water pumps, etc. and can speak to the mechanics in their language. But my voice is female so some assume I don’t know the brake from the gas.

At car dealerships, they’ve spoken directly to my husband and excluded me from the conversation, even though I’m the one who would have been making the final decision because my ex was a financial idiot.

It is not unusual at all to have all the eye contact and conversation directed to my male companion when it comes to these kinds of situations. The man is often assumed to be the decision-maker, the breadwinner, the mechanically inclined one. And when there is no man present, I’ve been asked when my husband would be available, what he thought, etc.

So, I don’t know that school was oppressive. I never really felt that. But general society? Yes. I personally don’t let it stop me, but it’s there.

4

What year did it end?

I find your faith in the American people admirable. The ability to do a complete 180 within a generation, the ability of immigrants from not-so-evolved cultures to adapt immediately.

I am a loudmouth but I kept quiet out of shyness through much of my childhood. I began speaking out a lot in class and then at work when I realized people considered that behavior unattractive or at least intimidating in women. I knew there had to be something to it. I talk too much in meetings (and not just girl ‘too much’), but I’ve also automatically cleared the table of teacups when one was over despite my seniority. I yelled at some teenage boys the other day for throwing an old television onto a runner’s path. I don’t doubt that I will one day remind someone of their shrill mother-in-law.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m friends with plenty of guys who (probably) assume men and women are equal, but perhaps it’s because they assume this that they don’t see the little ways in which many of us get knocked down a peg in storybooks, school rooms, on dates and at work.

5

I’d also argue that things like street harassment encourage women to not assert themselves (though they may eventually). In part because it often starts at an age, 11 or 12, when they already feel self-conscious about their bodies and because it is often advised to be non-confrontational lest it turn violent.

…not that I can imagine this (or me) having tons of steam after that Doper tome.

6

The thing is, it’s hard to be culturally oppressed by catcalls, as catcallers don’t have any culture to oppress with.

7

Are women “culturally oppressed”? I don’t know; I’m not sure what that phrase means, to be honest. Are they judged differently from men for the same behaviors, and are such judgments negative enough to make most women think twice about engaging in behavior that other people may interpret as aggressive, argumentative, or otherwise impolite? Hell, yeah. Are gendered assumptions about behavior still pervasive enough to harm women in the workplace? Yes, at least in some cases. (Bear in mind that this example comes from academia, a field in which most people are at least moderately aware of gender bias and its consequences; I’d expect the harmful effects of stereotyping to be, if anything, more pervasive in other fields, where they’re less often discussed.)

8

I think it’s understandably difficult for men to observe a lot of sexism directly. Of course, I could also overhear the financial analyst assume there’s a man who has to approve the decision. And I have overheard that sort of thing and I found it very offensive. But for every time I overhear it, how many times does it happen just between some sexist ass and the woman he’s speaking to?

Or another way - how am I to tell the difference between a mechanic or electronics repairman who assumes women are incompetent and one who treats everyone as equal? They all treat me the same. I could refer a friend and hear about how rude they were to her, or I could be there with her and experience the awkwardness of watching someone speak only to me even though I’m neither making a purchase nor asking questions. I’ve been in those situations too. But not that often.

So I guess my point is that men should realize they’re not likely to observe sexism as frequently as women and women should try to keep in mind that even honest men who believe in equality are in a hard position to witness other people being sexist.

9

(Bolding mine.)
I think I agree with **astro **that this is overstating the case. Women under 50 who were routinely told to be self-deprecating and non-confrontational by multiple people (not just an anomalous old-fashioned mother, for instance) are, I think, fairly rare. Many more women “heard” this message as echoes, if you will. There is still covert gender bias to be found in American culture, but no one’s stating out loud that there should be.

10

Hmm, I didn’t realize culture stopped at the school room door. Good to know.

As others have said, it’s kind of like death by a billion paper cuts–tons of tiny, seemingly insignificant things that add up to a problem. It’s stupid little shit like servers dancing attendance upon my husband or father while Mom and I have to send up a flare to get a drink refill (though where we live now the service tends to suck equally for everybody). Ridiculous things like my boss telling a client that he’ll have “the girls” do something when we’re all 30-50 years old. It’s things like trying to buy a new heating element for the dryer and having 5 different men all insist on testing the old one to make sure it’s toast before they’ll sell you another one. Pernicious things like being called a bitch for not agreeing to some totally unreasonable imposition, or knowing that if you ask a guy to do or not do something, his buddies will start making that “pa-CHA” noise at him, even if your request is something reasonable.

That last is probably the biggest one–the unpleasant labeling women tend to get for being assertive. It takes a lot of forms, but it’s all over the place. Don’t let someone ride rough-shod over you? You’re a bitch. Object to your husband doing something? You’re a control freak. Ask a guy to do something, and remind him about it within a couple of months? You’re a nag. Kick ass, take names, and take no shit at work? You’re a ball-buster. Confess to wanting to bludgeon obnoxious fuckers who follow you down the street making lewd comments? You’re a feminazi who would set fire to a guy’s crotch for asking you what time it was. That last example, btw, is from this very board, where it’s supposedly a haven of intelligence and enlightenment.

And those labels are a pressure for women to sit the hell down, shut the fuck up, and just roll over already, because that’s the only way you can avoid them. And a lot of women give in to that pressure because being called names all the time is frankly not much fun, and objecting to the name-calling just gets you called more names–you’re either a bitch or overly sensitive, take your pick. Of course, other women embrace the labels and you get things like the Heartless Bitches International and t-shirts emblazoned with “100% Bitch AND PROUD OF IT.” But in a way the women who freely tell you “oh, honey, I’m a bitch” make me sad–they’re typically not bitches, just normal assertive human beings, but they’ve accepted that being assertive while female does in fact make you a bitch.

11

I hope this isn’t a double post (the hamsters ate my earlier attempts):

I have to disagree with you that women aren’t still explicitly told to be shut their yaps. I’d say it’s a lot more common than many people realize. Though I do agree that it’s not common in a school or professional setting. Perhaps this is more along the lines of the echoes you’re referring to, but my sister and I were repeatedly told very explicitly when we were younger that women were meant to be mothers and wives. It was always assumed that we would not work outside the home. When I put myself through my masters, I was subject to a litany of dissent from my mother, my father and my aunts, all of whom told me that I’d been to college - wasn’t that enough education? When would I do my duty and start having babies? Then when I did begin having children, my mother was horrified that I would consider working and putting my child in daycare.

Similarly, when my sister got her MBA and was forced to be the family breadwinner, my entire family wondered when her husband would “be a man” and find a job. It doesn’t matter to them that he’s in the financial industry where jobs are very hard to come by.

Even my husband gets uncomfortable when I express anger. He’s actually used the terms “unseemly” and “unladylike” before when I raised my voice when I was mad (something that happens only very rarely, since it’s not generally productive). Of course, he’s from a different culture where women are still much more submissive.

Also, I’ve often had trouble getting contractors to work directly with me, especially when they know I have a husband. I’ll be asked if they can speak with the “man of the house” or told that they’ll call back when he’s available. It’s extremely annoying and has resulted before in several contractors losing our business.

Still, my point is that while it’s now considered taboo to tell women what their duties are in the workplace or school (particularly if they include being submissive and quiet), those ideas are still alive and well in the home.

For what it’s worth, I’m 33.

12

Gah, no, that’s not echoes, that’s shouting in your ear. What you describe is exactly what I was asserting is now rare. I am crestfallen to hear I was wrong. :frowning:

13

We should also take into consideration there are a lot of women who perpetuate this subtle sexism.

I remember once my ex wife was dropping me off at work. On the way, we noticed that the front passenger tire was really low. I told her after she drops me off at work to just go right across the street to Discount Tire and get it fixed or replaced.

She got pissed because she thought I should make myself late for work and help her with the tire. Because I’m a man and that’s what us men should do. :rolleyes:

She also expected me to speak on her behalf once when she got into a verbal argument with some racist twit up at the bar. As this was happening, I quietly tried to explain to her the futility of arguing with bigots.

Finally, when the guy had enough of her arguing he started imitating her in a mocking voice. He didn’t call her any foul names; just mocking her. The argument ended there but she fully expected me to speak up and have some words with this fine fellow.

My question was: What the fuck for? :dubious:

14

I’m interested in hearing about people’s experiences at restaurants. Who does the server usually hand the check to? And what gender is the server in most cases? And is there an expectation that the man usually pays?

My own experience is that sometimes the server hands the check directly to my female companion. I would take slight offense at that, except that on those occasions, we’d agreed beforehand that my companion was treating this time. I chalk that up to the server being extremely astute.

15

One could also read this particular incident more as social disapproval of a man failing to conform to a traditional male gender role. The traditional male gender role isn’t oppresive like the female version, but men get crap if they don’t go along.

Just like men have a harder time seeing sexist acts against women, it’s harder for women to see sexist acts against men.

16

Oh, it’s absolutely sexism against men, too. But mostly my family was annoyed that my sister hasn’t birthed any babies yet. They think it’s unladylike for her to be making all the money. But I completely agree with you that it goes both ways.

17

Actually, I’d say that the traditional male gender role is MORE oppressive, inasmuch as men have far fewer socially acceptable choices than women do. No one really thinks twice anymore about a woman who decides to work, or to be a SAHM, but nearly everyone looks askance at a man who chooses to stay home with his kids.

Sexism against women tends to be differently oppressive, and certainly more insidious, but that doesn’t mean that traditional gender roles don’t adversely affect BOTH genders.

18

When I’m eating out with a male, the server almost always hands the check directly to my male companion (this is the VASTLY predominant behavior), or at the least, places the check on the table in between us (a very distant second). I don’t recall ever being handed the check directly unless I put my hand out for it.

When I’m eating out with a female, the server always places the check on the table between us.

19

Something I’ve noticed over the past couple of years. It used to be, when I was out to dinner with a girl, when the check came, the waitperson would put the bill down in front of me. More and more often, I’ve noticed the waitstaff setting the bill right in the center of the table, even moving plates around if necessary, so that the bill is not set in front of any specific person.

20

My parents sent my brother to college, and sent me to finishing school. They made it very clear that their expectation was that I would learn to play the piano, speak French,a nd play a good game of bridge for social occaisions. They expected me to marry well and spend most of my time at the Country Club.

From another thread:

Yeah, I’d say there was definite sexism and attempts at limiting my horizons. Didn’t work though.