Yep. Too many people who don’t want to be the bad guy, so they cause themselves and everyone around them twice as much misery than if they’d just been selfish and done what they wanted to do anyway.
I think it’s implicit in the suggestions of counseling that the OP approach that process in good faith, and not simply as a means to shift responsibility for an eventual breakup onto his wife. Certainly, if the OP’s state of mind has reached a point where he has in fact decided to leave, and counseling would be a deceptive exercise, then I’m not going to encourage him to pursue it.
More generally, though, in suggesting counseling, I’m relying on the fact that the whole point of this thread was the OP reaching out for advice. Assuming that this thread was opened in good faith, I take that to mean that he genuinely has not yet made up his mind. And if he’s willing to ask us for our thoughts, why not engage a professional counselor, who has some training and makes a living giving advice?
I would agree with that advice wholeheartedly if he’d give up his mistress so that he can think with a clear head. Mistresses have a huge advantage over wives because they exist in a secret, exciting fantasy land, apart from kids and mortgages and everyday “real” problems. Who can compete against that?
She goes out shopping mostly. And not just to the grocery store or Walmart, which she usually does during the week sometime… to the mall, to the bookstore, wherever.
I do it when I can. I’d say every weekend I encourage her to get out of the house by herself for some amount of time. Sometimes she says she just wants to relax at home or nap, and I’ll take the kids to the park or whatever.
Like I said, she has acquaintances, not friends. She’ll go out with a group of these acquaintances very rarely. Like, once or twice a year rare. She doesn’t talk to hardly any of them in between.
I encourage her to talk to folks, to ask them out for dinner, even just to invite them and their kids over to play and hang out.
“Do you like XXX? She seems nice. Maybe you should invite her out to dinner or invite her and XXX over to play sometime.”
Things like that. I can’t force her to make an effort.
When we are in group settings she just sits in the corner and doesn’t talk to anyone. Doesn’t try to make conversation. Nothing.
We were at a superbowl party this weekend. There were a ton of kids running around and playing. There were 10-12 adults there, a couple that we knew well and the rest were new friends of friends. It was fun. I don’t think that my wife said a single word besides “Hello” and “Nice to meet you” to any adult for the few hours we were there. She spent the entire party sitting at the end of a couch and walking into the playroom to check on the kids (who were fine and didn’t need to be checked on). Literally, absolutely no exaggeration.
I gave one earlier in the thread about my mother offering to babysit so we could go out, with her literally responding with a “Eh.”.
I can’t think of specific examples at the moment, but I will try to take some notes. She is the epitome of a glass half empty person, and it comes out in a huge percentage of her responses to any comment or situation.
I understand, and I won’t expect everyone to take my words as gospel. I am trying to be as honest as possible so that I can get honest responses.
I also understand that I have contributed. Like I’ve said, rarely is anything black and white. I understand that there are two parts to the relationship. It’s one of the reasons that I flat out asked her what I could do better a few years ago when we had the first serious conversation. Perhaps counseling would allow me to better understand my contributions.
She works for a few hours a day, at home. She has someone at the house every day, both during her working hours and during the other parts of the day. There is always someone there while she’s working, of course, but it’s very rare that she’s on her own with the kids for an extended period of time when she’s NOT working. Believe me, I understand that taking care of kids is not a vacation or walk in the park.
*That summation of our conversation has been repeated multiple times, and is off base.
I understand this. I think some people did not read about the conversation from a few years ago.
That conversation was PURELY me saying “I think our relationship could use improvement, what should we do?”. She told me some things I could do, I told her some things she could do.
There was NOTHING in that conversation about weight, demeanor/introversion, etc.
It was what should have been the epitome of a healthy marriage conversation.
No, I totally get that. You didn’t tell her you’re unattracted to her in that conversation.
What I’m saying is that she doesn’t feel attractive, so she doesn’t believe you when you say you need her to show more affection.
PunditLisa - thanks.
There is a lot of truth in here.
I have not demonized her to anyone that I know. In this thread I have tried to explain the actions and character traits that let me to where I am with my feelings, but I have admitted that she is not a “bad” person. I hope it doesn’t come off as a “cruel campaign”.
The bolded is on point.
I guess I still don’t know what my “ideal outcome” is.
It’s about both. They are tied together.
I really don’t want the bachelor life. I don’t want to go out and get drunk every night and hook up with a bunch of women. I love the family/marriage model.
I DO want to experience life and enjoy it. I want a partner who wants to do things with just me, but also with friends, and smiles and has fun doing them. I want a partner who I can enjoy both the family life and the marriage/romantic life with.
So, the choices I’ve made have led me to this point in life. And at the moment I’m unhappy with my partner, and the life that comes along with that.
Right, so what is the solution to that?
From my perspective, I’ve done all that I physically can over the course of our marriage to help with her issues with that. I am not trained to deal with her mental issues, if that’s what they are. I guess professional counseling is the last resort from that point of view.
But how exactly do you have that conversation? “Hey, I think you’re depressed and have a shitty self image and it’s affecting our marriage. You should go see a counselor to try and fix yourself.”
She has denied being depressed or unhappy in the past.
Perhaps approach it from a more “I care about you and want you to be healthy and happy” place than from the one you’ve outlined above.
I don’t know what the solution is. Just saying that it’s counterproductive to act as though her changing her behavior will fix your feelings towards her. I think this is delusional.
I don’t think you have to be crazy in love with your wife to have a good relationship. IMO, you do need to be committed to the commitment, though. It’s not about the person you’re with, but the union. The family you’ve made. The legacy you’ll want to look back on years from now and take pride in.
Your youngest child is 3. In a couple years, they’ll be in school. What could come with this milestone? Maybe your wife will get out of the rut she’s in and start improving herself. Maybe you’ll have discovered a new hobby that gets your mind off your present discontent, and you’ll find that life ain’t so bad with her after all.
Before throwing in the towel, get counseling. Do it because your communication strategies thus far have been ineffective in making things better. You owe it to your conscience and your kids to at least try to hold it together a little while longer.
How is it delusional to believe that my wife changing her behavior will change my feelings towards her? I don’t get that at all.
How a spouse acts, how they respond to you, etc., are all parts of why we are attracted to them. Changes in those behaviors could and likely would have a direct affect on your feelings towards them.
The reason is because you’re in love/lust with someone else. You said she’s your soulmate and you can’t find a single flaw in her. How can your wife possibly compete with that? She could become Wife of the Year all of a sudden and it still wouldn’t be enough. It’s been said over and over in this thread - nothing’s going to change in your marriage while this affair is still going on.
Then don’t. There are plenty of bachelors who dont do those things.
Here’s the problem as I see it- you’re unhappy with your wife but remain married becaue you prefer married life to the bachelor life. And of course after only a few months, you don’t yet know if your soulmate with will leave her husband . It kind of seems as if you want to remain married as a back-up plan, in case it doesn’t work out with the soulmate. What you need to decide is not only if you prefer “the married life” to the “single life”, but if you prefer “the married life with this wife without affairs” to “the single life”. Because that’s the decision you have to make- it’s not fair to remain married and keep her tied to you while you continue the affair.
I agree with the suggestion that you move out to figure this out and also that you end the affair while you’re separated. It’s like I told an acquaintance who was planning to marry someone from another country that he met on line and spent very little time with. Everybody is on their best behavior, since you have so little time together. You both refrain from your annoying habits, (many of which you don’t have the opportunity to display during your limited time together) and more easily forgive any of the other’s habits because again, so little time together. Your soulmate might have plenty of flaws if you lived with each other.
My husband and I get along much better when we are on vacation staying in hotels and eating in restaurants than we do when we are home and have to go to work , maintain the house, and have various other obligations.* Because it’s the same person, I know it’s because of the environment. If my vacations/dinners at restaurants were with a different person , it might make my relationship with my husband seem worse than it really is.
- We get along fine at home- but there’s a certain amount of stress that just comes with living in the real world that doesn’t happen in vacation world where the inlaws are never visited, where meals don’t involve shopping , cooking and cleaning up, where we never have to go buy a new refrigerator tonight because ours broke, etc.
You aren’t going to get that.
There are three outcomes here:
You live with your wife in the best marriage that the two of you can cobble together - it won’t be perfect - it will take work - and it may mean accepting her introvert tendancies.
You divorce your wife, your girlfriend divorces her husband, and even if you partnership is perfect with her (and it WON’T be, I have the most incredible relationship with my husband, we have been married seventeen years and have known each other thirty - and he still drives me batshit crazy some days (as I do him) and we still have our ups and downs and our stresses), you’ll still have a life where you have her kids, and your kids, and split holidays four ways from Sundays as your various children try to make it to all their relatives - and vacations where you have to negotiate which set of kids to take - or both sets - and teenage years where one of your kids says “screw you, I’m living with Dad” and just moves in - disturbing the house with teenage petulance - and three sets (minimum) of household rules and having to deal your whole life with each others ex - because of the kids…You might have a better relationship - but you are going to add a lot of logistical stress - and that will stress the relationship - and right now, two people in stressful relationships are releasing that stress through cheating with each other…
You divorce your wife, but your girlfriend chooses to make a go of it - now you are a bachelor until you can find a new wife. And divorced men with little kids aren’t exactly the catch of the season.
Your wife was introverted when you married her, right? But that didn’t keep you feeling well enough of her to marry her. Maybe she’s less social now, but unless she was a party-loving butterfly before and is now living like a hermit, I don’t get why this would be enough to turn you off of her.
If your wife started greeting you at the door with French kisses would that make you fall in love with her? If everything else stayed the same, would that make you feel more attracted to her? Because I’m not seeing how, when you’ve emphasized how much her weight and personality displease you.
Maybe I missed something in your OP, but I don’t see that your wife has changed all that much since the beginning. Your feelings about her have changed, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she has caused that.
What attracted you to her before all this change occurred? Have the qualities you used to find endearing changed?
You say "I think WE need to go to a counselor. I am very stressed about the state of our relationship - it isn’t healthy - and we are going to have to change it or we won’t stay married. I’m don’t know if I want to stay married now. I’m going to go to a counselor to figure that out, and I think you should go with me.
AND you break off the affair. At least until you make up your mind for sure about the marriage, and at least until you have been separated for a respectable amount of time - at least three months. If you EVER had ANY love for your wife, let her save face by doing that much. If you care about your relationship with your kids, you never want them to overhear “he left me for another woman - I think they were seeing each other before we even separated.” Because if your kids love your wife, they will hold that against you the moment they understand what it means.
I have a friend who has a recent divorce because her husband was cheating on her. Her children are older than yours - and they share custody. And she remains respectful towards their father. But she can’t keep them from overhearing things. So her son is ANGRY at his Dad. If he didn’t have to stay with him, he wouldn’t - and I suspect that at eighteen, he will sever relations. Her daughter is withdrawn to everyone - Mom, Dad, Grandparents, Friends - she can’t trust. The youngest is still sort of clueless - she is worried that when he does figure it out, he’ll feel that he betrayed his mom by having a relationship with his Dad (he likes Mom more and just blames Dad for not living there any more).
You don’t say “I think you are depressed and you should get help.”
You let the counselor tell her if they think she needs individual counseling for depression.
I have a question for you, OP. So your wife is an introvert, and you’ve posted that she has people in the house to help with the kids while she works, etc, and you give her “time off” so she can go out and do whatever on her own on the weekends.
But when does she get leisure time alone at home? No kids, no other adults, no husband, and no chores or other pressing things she must do? When does she get to lounge in the bath reading a book and enjoying a glass of wine, or work on a hobby, or watch silly TV shows that no one else likes, or whatever she might enjoy, with no one at home to interrupt her? Do you ever give her that opportunity?
I’m only a partial introvert, and with my husband’s illness/disablity, I never get time alone at home (except for the six weeks he was in hospital last summer, but that’s a different story.) And sometimes it drives me nuts. (At least I don’t have little kids to look after.)
She may not even be able to express to you that she wants this. But in your description of her behavior at the superbowl party, it seems to me that (she and you) might have been happier if you’d taken the kids to the party and left her on her own for a few hours. She might just need some blessed, blessed silence every now and then. It probably wouldn’t hurt to offer it to her.
That’s something you really do need to figure out. As some songwriters have said, you can’t get what you want until you know what you want.
It sort of looks that way to me, too.
“Our marriage is in serious jeopardy, and we both need to go to counselling to see if we can work on it. I’m ready to throw in the towel - you need to understand that this is a last-ditch effort.” I’m not getting the impression that your wife understands how unhappy you are with the state of your marriage, and that you’re this >< close to ending it.
I’m sympathetic to you, that your wife doesn’t seem to be a good match for you and also doesn’t seem at all interested in making any changes or doing anything to be a better partner. You can’t change other people, though - all you can do is change your response to them. If you are just too incompatible, ending the marriage amicably would be a lot better overall for everyone instead of damaging affairs.