I am not an atheist, but this is an argument I see directed at atheists a lot. I also think that there’s some similar arguments in the opposite direction. For instance, it’s obvious that God doesn’t exist, therefore anyone who believes in God is unintelligent or ignorant of science or what have you.
Personally, I find either sort of argument extremely frustrating because they’re both mind-bogglingly myopic, not to mention logically circular. It’s as if even admitting that one can disagree willingly implies that there might be a weakness in one’s own argument, which implies one may be wrong and, well, that’s just not possible.
Either way, it’s obnoxious. Even if God is the arbiter of morality, then to argue that his existence is obvious from creation, then it also should follow that his moral laws are at least as obvious, as while the intrinsic nature of a designer relies upon inference from creation, morality is directly drawn from observable interactions. As such, a moral atheist is in no way a contradiction.
I really wish that both theists and atheists could come to a greater realization that reasonable people can disagree and focus on actually agreeing on moral imperatives rather than on these sorts of obnoxious arguments.
Either way, shame on him for his hate, and good on you for not escalating the situation.
Minor update. I finally found out who the guy was, and it ends up he teaches at a very small Catholic university, not the big state school I thought he did. I also found the pamphlet from this week and saw the title of the sermon: The Psychology of Atheism. So apparently he was on topic. Horribly wrong, but on topic.
To add to the potential drama, we’re hosting the bible study this week at our house (which we’ve done many times before). The pamphlet has “homework questions” that the group is supposed to answer before the bible study. Ready?
“What is the reason you most often hear for why someone doesn’t believe in God? Who in your life right now are you most likely to hear that from? What would you say to them right now?”
So I imagine everyone in the room is going to write down steronz. Awkward! I’m either going to need to make myself scarce or drink some liquid courage.
This next one isn’t so bad:
“The writer, Peter, says that sinful desires ‘war against our soul’ and that we are to ‘live amongst the pagans.’ Sometimes we get these mixed up and ‘war’ against unbelievers and live closely to or try to manage sinful desires. Why is that?”
Umm, maybe because you listen to sermons about how unbelievers are morally deficient?
There’s more, but I think the gist is that they should live good and noble lives in order to convert the pagans by being positive role models, which is probably the #1 theme of this church. I really have no problem with that. Anyway, bible study is tomorrow night. <cue ominous music>
We’ll see. This church has been a good thing for my wife, and I’m not going to shut the party down just because someone said some ignorant stuff. Ain’t like his argument hasn’t been hurled at me a hundred times before, so I’m perfectly content to live and let live. My wife, though, wants some confirmation from her friends at the church that they understand that his message was wrong, and so far she’s not getting that from them. I told her that they’d either redefine atheist or redefine immoral to suit their needs, and surprise! they’ve been doing exactly that, trying to squirm out of this situation.
She’s less upset by what was said than by the fact that the congregation as a whole just kinda nodded along. I feel bad for her; she caught a glimpse of the church’s bad side and she can’t get past it.
Hm, can you get hold of a set of the paperwork and give the answers from your perspective?
I think that most christians are negatively impacted by the rabid atheists like Madelaine Murry OHare and her group. Most christians don’t seem to understand that they probably run into atheists [and agnostics] all the time, they just don’t talk about it. I rarely discuss religion with people I know randomly, so they have absolutely no idea I am an agnostic.
Well, I’m curious, what exactly did she expect at church other than…wait for it…people espousing the tenets of their belief? Not that they’re right, but this seems like pretty typical church fare. Did you expect to go to a church and have them all say “Yeah, you know, there totally COULD be a system of morality not dependent on God, let’s all go home and reflect on that…”?
Conceding that I might possibly be right would be logically inconsistent, and I would be disappointed if they did that. Loving me like Jesus commanded them to would be normal and acceptable. Calling me morally deficient seems un-Christian, unless you define immoral behavior broadly enough to include “not believing in Jesus.”
To be fair, I approve of gays and abortion and I had lots and lots of premarital sex with my wife, sex which I’ve never repented for, so technically I am morally deficient, but then so is my wife, so I’m not sure they want to go down that road.
15 years ago I would have put on my militant atheist hat and been all about that. I’ve mellowed though. I’m just going to do whatever my wife wants me to do. Things seem to turn out best that way
Alternatively, maybe your wife could discreetly ask some of her peers what they thought of the professor. Nodding agreement in church is not necessarily the same as agreeing.
Oh, god, a philosopher is bad enough, but an evangelical philosopher? It sounds like an absolute nightmare. The only thing worse is if he had been a philosophy student.
Kidding aside, it sounds like your wife was pretty affected by what you experienced, which might plant some seeds of doubt for the bullshit this church is peddling. I really have nothing against churches, and I love philosophy and philosophers, but that dude strikes me as neither very Christian nor philosophical.
My Dad used to be very confrontational about the church. Catholicism in particular, but he’d take on whatever was offered.
Then he discovered humanismand he’s much happier. It describes his personal philosophy perfectly and gives him a label to use that doesn’t have the same baggage as atheism. He’s not a morally deficient atheist, he’s an entirely ethical secular humanist.
Of course, it helps that most evangelicals have no idea what it means and their confused looks give him great joy.
I think you are wise to be guided by your wife. I mean, in general it’s a good policy (;)), but also it’s her church and her peeps, so I’d follow her lead on whether she wants you to show up for Q&A at bible study. If you do, **Meatros **has a good point–you have to be the better man if they start to act like assholes, and that’s not easy to do.
We had an interim boss who was an asshole to people–used to yell at people during meetings, etc. A colleague of mine was legendary at keeping his cool, and it was amazing how his keeping his cool while interim boss was losing it just made interim boss just look like more of an asshole, and colleague look like a class act. The point being, though it is hard to do, keeping your cool makes you look better and those who are slinging hate look worse. Not that I’m one to talk, because I am not good at controlling my anger, but it’s always easy to tell other people how they ought to live their lives.
By their system of morals, you are morally deficient. Christians teach that all people are morally deficient. That’s why they need Jesus. Not believing in Jesus is defined as the ultimate sin as it is the only one that gets you sent to hell. If you believe in Jesus, you can ask him for forgiveness for your moral lapses. If not, you can’t.
Now I do have a problem with the idea that atheists are actively rejecting God, rather than thinking the evidence led them to their belief, or just not ever having thought about it. But the idea that atheists are morally deficient? That’s standard Christianity.
This is the reason that, when I talk about morality, I talk of the consensus morality. There are many different ones.
That was from the movie you got standup philosopher. He said that in the scene where he was trying to get unemployment. The unemployment woman said, after he said stand up philosopher…“Oh…you’re a bullshit artist!”
*steronz:
Deeeeeeeeeear kindly Herr Professor,
I find it rather odd
That you should think me lesser
For not having a God.
I don’t mind sermonizing,
Especially in a church,
But holy moly, now I feel besmirched!
**Professor: **
Yea, Officer Krupke, this man is hellbent,
Ignoring all the evidence the good Lord hath sent.
His atheist thinking’s corrupted his mind -
He’s eth-i-cal-ly disinclined!
steronz: Disinclined!
All: Disinclined! Disinclined!
We are dis-in-clined!
We are eth-i-cal-ly disinclined!*
yes, we know. it is one of our favorite movies, and has been in rotation on cable for the past month:D [I also linked to that particular scene in my original post]
From my humble viewpoint, it appears that you’re already on the path of enlightenment.
I remember my favorite pastor saying, “They weren’t browbeaten, or bullied, or forced into beliefs about the kingdom of heaven. They were loved into believing.”
