So all men are basically sexual predators that use their physical make-up to intimidate women? Nice to know we’re all sleazy. I’m not sure what you’re basing your opinion on, but I certainly don’t agree with it. I’m not shy, not even close, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable showering with a gay man, for the reason I mentioned above. He would potentially see me as a sexual object, and I don’t feel that anyone should have to submit to even an implied invasion of their privacy in a shower area. I would feel just as uncomfortable in a shower with a woman I didn’t know.
andygirl–
After your clarification, I understand more now. And while I agree that her response was over-board, give her the benefit of the doubt. As you said, it was probably the first time she had been in that particular situation. Maybe take some time and get to know her and let her get to know you, and I’m sure she’ll realize that you’re just another person, and possibly a friend.
I am having trouble following some people here. Atrael, if a gay man you know (and who knows you are straight) tells you (in a fully dressed scenario) that he thinks you are attractive (not as a come-on, but maybe because it fits in the conversation), would you feel threatened too?
I mean, sure, maybe gay men in the locker room at my squash club ARE looking at my ass in an approving fashion (I have no idea whether even WOMEN besides my GF find my ass attractive, but let’s assume they do ;)). But so what? How does that threaten me or my sexual integrity (for lack of a better term) in any way?
It’s not like they’re gonna jump my bones in a public locker room. Unless I’m playing at a “different” squash club, ya know
No, I wouldn’t feel threatened in that situation, as a matter of fact, I’ve had gay friends that have told me they thought I was attractive, so I know what my response and feelings were. But that is entirely different from being in a “personal” situation. This is a hard concept to get across with plain words, but I’ll try and clarify.
If a gay man finds me attractive, that’s one thing, if he finds me attractive, and has the potential to see me in a “private” setting, like a shower, that’s different. Again, if you get rid of the double standard that you’re applying with women, how comfortable would you be if you were naked in a room with a woman that you found un-attractive, but you knew had the hots for you? Perhaps you are a person that can say to themselves “Hey, I don’t care if she’s mentally jumping my bones, or is going to go back to her room and masturbate while remembering how I looked naked”, but I personally would feel uncomfortable. While I’m not a woman, I feel fairly sure that if I went up to a woman and told her “Hey, I know you don’t like me, and are not attracted to me, but I really like you, would you mind if we undressed in the same room?..I won’t do anything, but I’d sure like to get the mental image of you naked for later” I’d get the ever-lovin’ shit slapped out of me. It’s a question of personal boundaries. I don’t think most people would like to think of themselves as an object of lust for a person, no matter what sex/preference that person is.
andygirl–
Note, that I’m not talking about your situation here. You made if obvious that there was no potential for that in your shower, I’m just explaining how it might make me uncomfortable.
Well, andygirl isn’t likely to become a straight married man anytime soon so that doesn’t help her get any perspective on the situation does it? Of course no comparison is going to fit precisely except a lesbian women being naked in the vicinity of a naked straight woman, you can set up hypotheticals, and compare and contrast the dynamic between them to death, but it doesn’t mean much. I chose the one situation that she might be able to relate to.
Coldy, in my original post I said:
I think you’re basically argueing the point that being naked infront of someone who might be attracted to you isn’t a bad thing in general. This point is valid for some, but not for all. In this case its clear the girl in question doesn’t share that liberated view, but I don’t think its fair to degrade her for it.
I also tend to think the real fear when it comes to being naked in front of another sex, isn’t that they are attracted to us…its that they aren’t. Knowing that the other person has the potential to examine and rate your desirablility sexually in what you feel is a vulnerable situation is going to very unpleasant for many.
Actually I didn’t say anything about “sexual predators.” That’s criminal language jargon from the debate about rape and sex crime prevention.
I probably should have explained my use of the word “predator” in more detail. I’m using it in a psychological sense, not a legal sense. If you perceive that someone is a threat to your sense of safety or security, you tend to perceive them as a possible “predator.” And you react accordingly–“I don’t want him in the shower with me.” And this is irrespective of whether he is actually any kind of actual physical threat or not.
Take the example of an all-male dorm made up only of straights. They feel safe and secure in the knowledge that none of them are romantically or sexually interested in others. Introduce one gay male into the dorm, and they may react as though they have a “predator” among them. Suddenly they are aware that they might become the object of that gay male’s attention, and so they take up a defensive posture and complain that their security and privacy has been compromised. And this attitude can arise even when the gay male is clearly not at all interested in any of them, is clearly outnumbered and not about to do anything to piss off people around him, and so on.
People want control over how other people think of them. As you yourself said, “He would potentially see me as a sexual object…” In other words, you don’t even want anyone to have even the possibility of thinking of you in a manner you don’t like. You fear losing control over how a man might perceive you, and you see that as a threat (and hence you react to the other as though he is a “predator”).
So the issue here is not whether someone is a “sexual predator” (i.e., rapist on the prowl). The issue is whether one individual is perceived as compromising another individual’s safety and security. Once that perception exists, then people start reacting in a predator-vs.-victim defensive mode. And this can occur even when all the involved parties agrees that the gay male has no intention or desire whatsoever to consider the people around him as sexual objects. (The simple fact that he has the capacity to do so is enough for some people to perceive him as a as a predator–i.e., as a threat to their sense of security.)
I hope I’ve my use of the word “predator” in an intelligible manner. Basically, I agree that “predator” is an emotionally charged word. But I’ve seen it used in sociological and psychological discussions of the issue of gays in the military (which is a pretty similar debate). So it came up in my earlier post on this subject. Perhaps it would have been better to use a different term–a term that is less emotionally charged and that isn’t linked to legal connotations from discussions of rape and rape prevention.
And you would deserve to get the shit slapped out of you. That’s sexual harassment. And it would be sexual harassment if a gay guy did it to a straight guy as well.
In any case, I don’t see how it applies to gays and straights living together and respecting each other’s space. What you described was basically a criminal act, no matter who is involved.
(Sorry, Atrael. I don’t mean to get on your case or anything. I’m fully aware that you’re a reasonable, fair, and thoughtful person. I’m not trying to make you out to be the bad guy. I just don’t see how that kind of sceneario applies in the situation we’re discussing.)
Fair enough, Omniscient, I see what you’re saying. I agree that’s it’s pretty much impossible to set up a real-life situation which exactly parallels the situation andygirl describes.
You’re right, I mis-took your use of that word, apologies for the mis-understanding. And I agree with your further explanation. However, if you go back and read what you first posted, you specifically mentioned a man being physically larger, and more intimidating. To my mind, that puts what you said in a purely physical context, and not a physiological one. Again, I agree with most of your last post, except this part:
I’m not sure I agree with a person feeling unsafe in this situation, as much as un-secure. I doubt the feeling is in my mind that my safety is at risk, my feeling of the security of my privacy may be.
Don’t worry about it, we’re debating, I don’t take it personally.
As to the comment you referred to, true I was over-dramatizing, but the base situation is implied to be the same. I just added the text to what the situation was conveying non-verbally. In other words, while no words were exchanged, in that same situation, were I the person involved, that’s what would be going through my mind. Sure, the gay person in the shower may not be hitting on me there, or doing any overt actions that lead me to believe they are attracted to me, however, the possibility exists that they could gain some sexual gratification from those memories at a later date. That’s the whole problem with gays in the military. Not that I think they couldn’t perform up to standards, or would necessarily be a detriment to unit moral, but no matter how you cut it, what Omni said is correct. For all practical purposes, we have 4 genders now. How to separate those genders, and give people the privacy they demand is a difficult situation.
Fair enough. Those are legitimate distinctions. It has been a while since I debated these issues or even read the literature on the subject, and my choice of terminology may be off the mark at times.
I think this debate comes down to the following: You see the bathroom scene as a place where the gay guy may be getting some sexual kicks. I tend to view the situation more in terms of reasonable people giving each other proper space and going about their legitimate business. And if someone abuses the situation, there are sexual harassment laws to punish the offender.
However, we’re probably not going to resolve this difference in viewpoints anytime soon, and I have to get some work done before the boss starts hollering. So basically I’m going to have to bail out on this discussion.
Before I do, let me reiterate: Everything I read in your posts tells me that you are a reasonable, fair, and thoughtful person. In turn, I hope you will understand that I’m not accusing you of homophobia or whatever. The issue of gays and straights living together in close quarters and similar related issues (such as gays in the military) are just about the toughest debates in the whole spectrum of gay/straight issues (second in difficulty only to the issue of fundamentalist religion and gays). A lot of the argumentation on this issue gets down to nuances and perceptions, and it is quite possible for reasonable, fair people to legitimately disagree on these things.
(By the way, just as a footnote to this debate, I disagree that there are four genders. I think there are two genders and two sexual orientations. But that’s a separate thread, and that debate has other implications. I just wanted to point out real fast that I disagree on the “four genders” thing. But, as I said, it’s time for me to bail.)
Thanks for a good debate, Atrael. I wish you all the best!
JTR, on the 4 genders debate, its all just a matter of semantics. I can say that there are 4 genders, you can say that there are 2 genders and 2 sexual preferences. Both resulting in 4 categories of sexual creatures. The real debate is obviously how can you fairly segregate these categories, or even if we should.
My opinion on the subject is that which ever direction one goes, the customs must be applied equally. If you argue that men and women should remain seperated, I think its only fair to give straight men and straight women the same consideration in regards to gays, as you give them with respect to one another. But the obvious stumbling block there is what about the gay men and women who are now placed into a environment where every party is capable of the subtle invasion of security and privacy? Its an obvious Catch-22.
The point is that I don’t really see your “disagreement” as such at all, just a different choice of words to describe the same thing.
Like said before-she’s probably just shy and hasn’t known any one who was openly gay before.
I know lots of people on the net who are, but in college, there’s this one girl I had a class with and I recently found out she was gay. She is the first person I’ve ever known who was gay that I am AWARE of being gay. (I’m sure I know gay people, but I don’t know who they are-
Anyhoo, I have to admit, I am a little uncomfortable-not threatened, or that she will be attracted to me, more that it just keeps popping into my head.
And I feel bad about it, but I can’t help it. Perhaps she REALLY feels bad, so I wouldn’t hold it against her just yet.
I addressed it, so I guess I should argue it, even if only briefly. Okay, one more post!
I understand what you’re saying. But semantics are the stuff of debate, and debate steers public policy. So even something seemingly innocuous like “there are four genders” may need challenging.
Gay men aren’t a separate gender from straight men. First and foremost, gay men are men. It’s only secondarily that they happen to be gay.
Popular myths and stereotypes aside, the vast majority of gay men don’t want a sex change operation, don’t want to dress like women, and don’t want to be women. They are men, and they enjoy being men. They are perfectly happy to do all the manly things that other men do, with one minor exception. They fall in love with men instead of women.
But that’s a pretty minor exception–or it would be in an ideal world where no one discriminates against them for that one thing. In all other things, they are subject to all the same things that straight men are subject to: Gender pressures, socialization as a man, “male” professions, expectations that men should behave certain ways in society, and so on. Remember that a lot of gays are still closeted, and it’s impossible to tell them apart from straight men. And of those who are “out,” you probably still couldn’t pick most of them out of a crowd. From everything I’ve heard and seen, drag queens and leather daddies and super-effeminate types get a lot of press and TV exposure but they are only a small minority of all gays. The rest of them are as male-acting as you and me. And they wouldn’t have it any other way.
And they traditionally don’t get their kicks peeking at the penises of straight guys in bathrooms. They have spent their lives using the men’s room just like every other man, and they know what and what not to do. Furthermore, they don’t want paranoid homophobes as their boyfriends. They generally don’t get sexual arousal from leering at gay-fearing straights any more than you or I would get sexual arousal from openly sharing a bathroom with a large and very vocal crowd of man-hating feminists.
In short, for straight guys like you and me, there’s simply not much impact on our lives as a result of the fact that some men are gay. Certainly not the kind of impact that we get from the huge gender difference between men and women.
Okay, end of preaching. Except for one more note: Keep in mind that if you live in a college dorm or in the military or if you use a public restroom, you are sharing the bathroom with gays from time to time right now. The only difference between andygirl’s situation and your situation right now is that you don’t know which of the guys in the bathroom with you now are the gay ones. Would knowing really make so much difference?
Okay, I’m out of here. Thanks, Omniscient. What I said to Atrael applies to you too. Personally, I have no sense that you’re a homophobe or whatever. As far as I’m concerned, these are legitimate discussion points.
Am I missing something here??? Did this girl say anything to indicate why she left the shower? Seems everyone here is jumping to the conclusion that she left becuase of a potential sexual thing. It may have been something as simple as she forgot her shampoo! It is very difficult to assume someones thoughts based on a one time encounter, now if she behaved the same way several times, then the conclusion would have more merit. I have seen alot of hurt feelings and down right hatred develop from people see something and jumping to what they think is the obvious reason(s) for it, when in reality it is something totally different. Just MHO but I think the world would be a better place if people didn’t assume someones actions are based on thier own up brining (hope that makes sense).
Historically, we’ve found it sufficient to only separate people by gender, not sexual orientation. There have always been gay people in these situations. The only difference is that now they’re starting to be comfortable being open about it. So to maintain the historical separation of compatible sexual people, should we further separate the different catagories? (Forget the bathroom debate, what about roommates?)
I say no. I think it would just increase the sense of “otherness” that many straight people already have about gay people. (You’d have “the gay dorm” and “the gay bathroom”.) Plus, it would be a logistical nightmare: straight boys with straight boys, straight girls with straight girls, gay boys with gay girls, bisexuals in their own rooms, asexuals all in one big room.
I think we’re past the Three’s Company era. Straight men and women can be roommates without problems, as long as they are both respectful. (I’ve had several female roommates, with no problems at all.) Similarly, gay and straight people can continue to share dorm rooms, locker rooms, and restrooms without getting all weird.
In response to the OP, I think that what the girl did was rude, but not unreasonable based on her background. Best just to let it go, and maybe talk to her if she keeps doing it.
That’s not very reassuring, I damn well know I get alot of enjoyment from sharing a shower with a bunch of attractive man-hating feminists. A pretty naked woman is attractive to me under any and all circumstances, I presume that this holds true for gay men regarding men in many cases as well. So, basically you need to place a priority on which party’s feelings are more valid or valuable. The gays need to not be treated as different, or the conservatives need for privacy and security in personal situations.
Now, I personally have no problem with a woman or a gay guy jilling or wacking off out of view while or after checking me out in the shower. Thanks for the compliment, you can keep the change. I however don’t presume that everyone shares my view, so lets not trample the quiet majority’s feelings while we beat the gay-rights drum. I’m just saying, look at both sides of the arguement.
Vestal Blue, purplebear…you do realize Atrael was being sarcastic, right?
