Moderator’s Note: Yes, this thread isn’t in the Pit anymore, so if anyone wants to flame anyone, they need to start a Pit thread.
I sometimes think that not having faith is like being deaf. Most hearing people consider deafness a serious handicap, but curiously, a lot of deaf people don’t seem to agree. For example, there was a Pit thread (or maybe it was GD) a while back about a deaf couple that was pleased that their kid had the same congenital deafness as one of the parents. Never having been able to hear, they don’t see themselves as missing out on anything. I think not having faith is like that. People who’ve got it think it’s the best thing since sliced bread, and people who don’t have it don’t see what the big deal is. They don’t have it, they don’t care that they don’t have it, and even if you could give it to them, they wouldn’t want it anyway.
To take the analogy a step further, imagine you’re deaf. People who can hear keep coming up to you and telling* you how great this Beethoven guy is, and they go on and on about it. And you’re thinking, yeah, I’m sure he’s great, but I’m really not equipped to appreciate him, thanks anyway. But they keep going on about him: Beethoven Beethoven Beethoven. And then there’s all the guys who are really in Mozart, and keep going on about how much better than Beethoven he is, like you (being deaf) could possibly give a shit. And then there’s those really crazy dudes, the ones who act like it’s your fault you’re deaf, and sometimes they’ll get violent about it. And you never know if the guy who just asked you if you liked Brahms is one of the normal ones, or if he’s going to freak out about you being deaf like you just insulted his wife. Finally, you come home, and there’s some woman on the internet telling you that she knows, just knows that one day you’re going to learn to appreciate Beethoven, and you just want to grab her by her virtual shoulders and scream, “NO, I’M NOT! I’M FUCKING DEAF, AND I’M NEVER GOING TO LISTEN TO FUCKING BEETHOVEN! NOW FUCK OFF!”
But you don’t, because it’s not her fault she’s the five-hundred and thirty-eigth person this week to tell you how great Beethoven is, and she’s only trying to be nice, and if you chew her out, she’s just going to go off wondering, “Why are deaf people so mean?” So instead, you write as polite and reasonable a post as possible, maybe make a little analogy and stretch it way too far, trying to make your point, which you probably don’t because you’re using far too many run-on sentences.
What I’m saying here, dreamer, is that while I know you meant well, it’s a message we’ve all heard far, far too many times. I’m not a believer, and I never will be, at least not through human intercession. I’m not asking that you stop praying for me, because you’re doing it out of compassion, and you can’t have too much compassion in this world. But you don’t need to tell me about it, because believe me, I’ve heard it all before.
*Okay, I don’t know how you could know what they’re telling you if you’re deaf. Maybe you can read lips. Or they all happen to know sign language. Or something. It’s an just an analogy; don’t sweat the details.
Whatever makes you feel better, dreamer. I can’t imagine why you feel the need to announce it, though.
This is very true. I’m almost positive I saw dreamer post somewhere here, that this is the only place she’s able to interact with atheists and other non-Christians. I can’t find the post, and I may be mistaken, and I don’t want to put words in her mouth, but I’ve certainly heard the sentiment expressed elsewhere. In fact, I’ve had people tell me, when they find out I’m an atheist, that they’ve never met an atheist before. On the other hand, not only was I raised in a fundamentalist Christian church, if I wish to speak with a fundamentalist Christian, all I have to do is, literally, talk to my next-door neighbor, or the lady downstairs, or any of about 2/3rds of my co-workers, or my own parents, or almost any random person on the street. So, yeah, I’ve heard it.
Dreamer, this is the second time in as many threads that I’m disappointed in you.
We are instructed to pray, we are not instructed to brag about it or use it as a way to argue.
I don’t think I’ve ever felt the need to post in GD, but I think you go too far. You expected the responses you are getting. No, I believe you looked forward to them.
Someone has a martyr complex.
That’s a poor analogy. Deafness is a defect, a lack of a vital sense. Faith is mere credulity, and not having it in no way deprives anyone in the way that deaf people are deprived of Beethoven’s music.
If anything, having religious faith, at least for some folks, is the equivalent of intellectual blindness.
But that’s exactly my point: a lot of deaf people argue that they aren’t lacking a vital sense, and that they are not defective. (I’m not saying I agree, but who am I to argue? It’s their ears.) As much as you and I, who think hearing is fantastic and important and something we couldn’t imagine living without, are bugging the heck out of some deaf guy who doesn’t give a crap, so too are evangelicals going on and on about faith bugging the heck out of those of us who don’t have it.
Put another way: I’m not saying that not having faith is as horrible as being deaf, I’m saying that being deaf is roughly as trivial as not having faith.
BTW, I apologize for swearing in my previous post. Thought I was still in the Pit. And while I’m here, I also want to apologize for starting so many of my sentences with conjunctions. What’s up with that?
I have to agree with gobear - a more fitting analogy in my mind would compare religious belief to lack of a vital sense.
Oh, and since I have a canned response just for the situation where someone says they’ll pray for me, I might as well use it: That’s cool. You pray for me, and I’ll think for you.
I’m sorry for offending those of you that I did. It was not my intention to get attention, honestly it was not. There’s not much more I can say without digging my hole a bit deeper so I’ll just go away quietly now.
Nice thought, but don’t pray for me.
Thanks anyway.
Esprix
*You’re lovin’ gives me a thrill
But you’re lovin’ don’t pay my bills
Now give me money
That’s what I want *
But don’t go away mad…
We each grow, not from being persuaded by others, but by illuminating our thoughts with the sparks struck in discussion with those of differing viewpoints.
Catch your breath and come on back, dreamer, so we can go another round…and all come out the wiser. 
Sorry Dreamer,
You cannot unpray the prayer, or unannounce the announcement.
Having done it, live by it. You are now constrained to pray with as much true humility as you can muster, for each soul not given to Christ on this board. You have given your word, in Christ’s name.
Never speak of it again, never claim it as a matter of character, or quality. For you, it is duty only; to fulfill a promise made to God, in front of human witnesses.
How can you do anything else?
Pride is a subtle sin, and a grievous one. A lifetime of penance, for a moment of hubris.
Tris,
Another sinner, fond of pride.
Trisk, you seem awfully proud of that…
Kidding! Kidding! Hoo, what a kidder I am…
Esprix
Well, I hope your prayers are answered.
Really, I do. As of yet, I have found God somewhat elusive. I have looked…
OK, a serious post with what I hope is a serious insight for dreamer.
First, my position: My parents attempted to raise me fundamentalist Christian; it didn’t take. I spent my teens and 20s as a bitter atheist, my 30s as a true agnostic—but a seeker in philosophy and metaphysics. Since then (please don’t ask how many decades), I’ve seen myself as a spiritual but non-religious person who only recently discovered that Tolstoy said it more than a century ago: “The kingdom of God is within you.”
IMHO, dreamer, the one piece of this puzzle that you’re missing; the one piece that keeps you stumbling unexpectedly and falling on your face when dealing with non-Christians is simply this: Respect. You clearly have all the good intentions in the world…but you don’t respect the right of others to find their own way.
Approach it from the religious point of view: John Calvin said (though IMO his followers don’t practice it), “Each man stands alone before God.” Update it to remove the gender bias, of course…but it still means that each human being answers to God and to God alone. To put it another way, God judges each of us but if humans try to judge each other in a religious sense then they are attempting to take God’s place and function.
If you have spiritual feelings and beliefs that give you joy—which you clearly do—but come across someone with different beliefs but who also claims that those beliefs give him joy, then what do you do? If you say, deep inside, “Well, I’m right and he’s wrong.” then you have usurped the prerogatives of God. If, instead, you can say to yourself, “Well, I still feel that I’m right for me and for my hope of salvation and I’ll continue to hold to my own faith but this person facing me sees it differently and, since I can’t judge him as God would, I have to admit that he may right for him.” then you have found a way to talk with him and disagree while giving him respect…and, incidentally, perhaps advancing further along your own path to salvation as well.
dreamer, you want to share the joy you have found. Good. I can tell from your posts that you are a person who is loving, spiritual and also intelligent. Were we in the same physical sphere, I’m sure I would enjoy having you as a friend. But I would also request—require, actually, in a friend—that you respect my right to walk my own path and acknowledge that, though different from yours, it may well be the best path for me and that in God’s judgment or any absolute sense of reality, you have no way of knowing what’s best for me. You can know only what seems to be best for yourself and it is that upon which God will judge you.
The reason IMHO your OP in this thread (and some posts elsewhere) have brought withering responses is simply this: You assume that you’re right and others are wrong and you therefore don’t give them the respect you would an equal before God. But, if you’re judging them thus, are you not therefore failing in your attempt to be a good Christian?
I mean no offense and I don’t hope to ‘persuade’ you of anything. I have used language that I normally don’t (that “G” word… ) in an attempt to communicate but I do hope that you have not found it offensive. In the spirit of my earlier post, I merely hope to strike sparks that may help both of us to grow.
Don’t give up on us, dreamer…or on yourself either.
D_Odds: *You never give me your money . . . *
Actually, I would be very grateful if Dreamer and her kind would give up on us. I don’t give a tinker’s damn if Dreamer and His4Ever spend their leisure hours speaking in tongues, burning incense to Kali, or sacrificing goats to the orisha. I’m all for people being free to pursue whatever gives them pleasure, and here’s the catch, as long as they, in turn, allow others the same freedom.
See, the trouble with the Left Behind crowd, the Dreamers, FriendsofGod, and the His4Evers, is that they are not content to practice their beliefs in the privacy of their churches. Oh, no, they have to impose their will on the rest of us, sure that they know that their way of life is the only way.
So they attempt to mandate the insertion of fairy tales into the teaching of science. They attempt to ban books that they find offensive, not understanding that they are free not to read the books. They block or overturn laws that would ban discrimination against gay people. Fundies have a dictatorial mindset; they don’t believe in the principle of “live and let live.” They believe that America, for its own good, must be brought under total subjection to their brand of Biblical interpretation. Fundies–Muslim, Christian, or Jewish–are the enemies of freedom.
I wonder if the fundies in our midst would be happy if they lived in a pre-dominantly Muslim area where Qu’ranic law was imposed. If not, then they might someday figure out why the rest of us don’t want to live under fundie sharia.
And Duck Duck Goos, you can put your hand down. I think we have already established that, whatever the historical basis fo the Fundamentals might have been, the Fundamentalist label has effectively been hijacked by the Falwell/Jenkins/LaHaye crowd.
First off: Thanks, dreamer. I find your beliefs wildly incorrect and internally inconsistent, but I appreciate the sentiment.
gobear: lighten up, dude. What “they” do, they being various nutcases who are religious, is not, not and also not what Dreamer does. Dreamer has the right to witness at you, with the implication that you better shape up or else. You have the right to get pissed off at this. But still, wouldn’t it be nicer if
A: the Christians realized that the religious positions they are making to convert us have been heard and answered so often we mutter in our sleep sounding like Libertarian on a bad day. You gave up on the dietary requirements, the women shouting “Unclean!”, and the massacre of all but the women whom have not known man, whom you shall keep alive for yourselves. Give up on the witnessing. It doesn’t help.
B: Exploding into condescencion at every religiously-motivated well-wish isn’t helping. Gobear, you’re being as knee-jerk as the fundies you despise. Look for some actual imposition of will, and fight it and you will get respect. Complain about everything religious, and you look silly.