1.) Neither UncleBeer nor Jophiel is gay. They were very drunk, and a cute young female Doper offered them a buck if they’d kiss, and they did. Esprix (amongst others) is ragging them about it, but they aren’t gay, and they ain’t coming out of the closet because they’ve never been in it.
2.) You are extremely patronizing of minorities. “[H]ow sad it must be to be so different as to be black in a white enviornment.” It’s a lot harder when people try to assume things about you because of your skin color. Like many of the others that have posted in this thread, I find your attitude towards minorities disgusting. Treat them like human beings, not a skin color.
3.) “I think somehow it did amaze me though that people with a lot more education and political knowledge would be outraged at things like affirmative action…” Oh, so sorry- I have a different opinion than you about affirmative action. I believe that it fosters resentment between races. I believe that it pushes people farther apart because it forces people to look at race- “Maybe I’m only here because I’m black.” “If he were white, he’d never had gotten this job.” etc. I believe there are better solutions to racial disparity and undoing the damage of slavery and Jim Crow.
So please keep your Goddamned, high-and-mighty, “only racists could think otherwise” attitude the fuck away from me. I’ve known, been friends with, worked with, for, and over more African-Americans than likely you ever have, and I must be some Goddamned sly bigot to have weaved my way through life without having one of them call me a racist. I must be fucking insidious.
I don’t know about the kiss thing, didn’t see it. I was talking to Goboy at the time, none of my comments had anything to do with something that Esprix had said or done.
Those kids were unhappy and uncomfortable. Years later I was in line at the grocery store and noticed the girl ringing me up had the same last name of my black friend from school. I asked her if she was related. Yes, she was a younger sister. So I told her to tell her sister I said hi. Next time I saw her she said that her sister was so happy to hear from me, that I and the other little white girl were the only friends she had that year. She’s never forgotten us.
I joked with Kyle because he made it OK for me to joke with him, but I would never presume to make jokes about your sexuality unless you invited me too.
As for affirmative action fostering division between the races…funny how it’s mostly white people I see complaining about it. Using it as a very good excuse to resent blacks and their attempts to make opportunities available in this white dominated society. Goes back to my original observation about you John.
And to elaborate a little: N2K, just because afirmative action, quotas, and the like were instituted with the best of intentions (and I’m willing to argue that they weren’t, but that’s neither here nor there) does not mean they’re the best, or the fairest, or are successful.
Ma Bell was broken up with good intentions, our long-distance phone bills have not decreased. Spanish Catholics had the best of intentions when they converted Mexico at swordpoint. Mussolini had the trains running on time. Julius and Octavius Caesar thought they were doing the right thing for the people of Rome by remaining Imperator instead of relinquishing power to the Senate.
The road to Hell is paved in “I only wanted to do the right thing.” Warm fuzzies don’t make the best solutions. Now, you’re welcome to believe that Affirmative Action programs work well, but you have to accept the fact that other people disagree with you. And that DOES NOT MAKE THEM RACISTS.
Esprix: “I’m sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that.” -T.L.
That’s because you are unwilling to do any fucking research of your own. You want big names? Try Colin Powell, Alan Keyes, and Johnnie Cochran. Ohmigod, they’re . . Black!
Well, what do you know? Your OP is right! There obviously are some fucking bigots here. And you’re one of them.
You need to pull your fucking head out of your ass and learn that not everyone who disagrees with your views (such as they are since you obviously are merely regurgitating rhetoric that makes you feel better and haven’t actually thought about any of it) is evil.
Listen up, you willfully ignorant piece of shit, caring for all people regardless of skin color does not mean buying into the feel-good crap spewed by people like you who haven’t had an original; thought for themselves. And it does not mean blindly following the PC party line when it means supporting programs which simply do not work they way they were intended to. And if you want to fucking call me a racist for disagreeing with you, we can talk later about my qualifications.
John doesn’t need me to defend him. So speaking solely for myself, Fuck You.
Christ in a microbus, it’s people like you that make me sad to be a liberal.
Okay N2K, the temperature seems to be dropping and I’ve no desire to flame you again. I will also refrain from dissecting your post and taking issue with all your statements. I just want to comment a bit about your approach to a couple issues.
From where I sit, nobody around is denying that racism, homophobia, or religious intolerance exists. Nobody around is trying to promulgate those ideas either. What I sense from the things you have expressed here is that you see a lot more meanness and negativity than anyone else does.
First of all, the humor issue. Many, many jokes out there use stereotypes, and there is nothing wrong with stereotyping per se. We all do it every day as a matter of necessity. Any time you generalize the experiences or attributes of individuals to apply to a group you are engaging in stereotyping, as when you were talking in your last post about the “every day Mormons” being nice folks. We have to stereotype just to get by. When a joke uses a stereotype, whether it be the empty-headed blonde, drunken Irishman, the Priest, Rabbi, flaming queen, Republican, ad infinitum, there is an assumption that everyone knows that this is for humorous effect and is not meant to imply that all blondes are dumb, Irishmen drink, and so forth. It’s just a way to give us a set of stock characters to work with, cardboard cutouts with exaggerated, cartoon features. There are inherently harmful stereotypes out there, but stereotyping itself is not the enemy.
You said:
**
The thing is, half the humor out there is based upon our differences. That is the way it has always been, as far back as Aristophanes and long before. The bit you said about tone being important is very true, but I think that the latter bit is pure slippery-slope hyperbole. Humor may make an effective tool for those who do hate, or in any adversarial relationship for that matter, but I find it a very difficult proposition to swallow that humor would actually induce hatred. Rather, I think that laughing at our differences is a way to counter the very hatred you seem to fear. While humor can be used as a cruel attack on those perceived as different, it also can be used to celebrate those differences in a way which people on both sides of the dividing line can join in on.
One last thing about the whole Richard Simmons thing. I really don’t see how making fun of his “flaming” ways is any different treatment than is given any other celebrity. How is it different than making fun of Clinton’s being an irredeamable liar, Stallone’s poor acting, Pamela Anderson’s airheadedness, or Bill Gates’ hopeless nerdiness? Celebrity status automatically makes these folks targets of humor.
Now, as far as the racism thing goes, much of what I said above is applicable. Stereotypes and generalizations are necessary when we deal with any issue where we have to characterize the experiences or attitudes or behaviors of any group. But it is a more dangerous thing to assume that you know someone’s motivations. There is little difference between saying “Blacks just want a free ride,” on the one hand, and “You white guys are afraid of losing your grip on power,” on the other.
As a f’rinstance, affirmative action. Affirmative action is seen by some as perfectly fair. It gives advantage to an individual in limited situations because of their race or sex. Its proponents claim that it is necessary to help level the playing field and achieve a more equitable distribution of wealth, authority, and opportunity. They also seek jusification for and redress of past wrongs. They see the benefit to society that they seek as being the most important goal. Both whites and blacks support the idea. On the other hand, its opponents counter that it is inherently unfair to legislate an advantage (and the necessary disadvantage of the other party) for an individual based on group affiliation, and that the punishing today’s job applicant for wrongs done in the past by members of the majority is inherently unjust. They contend that equal opportunity is necessary, but that equal outcomes are impossible, and that this sort of law is more harmful to race relations than helpful. They believe that upholding individual rights are the most important goal. Both whites and blacks support the idea.
There is a lot of room for racism on both sides of the debate, but there is no reason that anyone on either side has to be a racist. Someone who advocates an absolutely colorblind society today will find himself in opposition to affirmative action and in danger of being labeled a conservative bigot. The same person fifty years ago would be in opposition to the Jim Crow laws and be called a bleeding heart liberal or worse.
I don’t know that it’s at all possible for anyone to refrain from forming an idea of what another person’s motivations are. However, if you are going to call someone on why they said what they said or believe what they believe, then you’d best have something to back it up with. I can’t say with certainty that I have always done so, but I try to say “Judging from X, it looks like you are Y.” Or, “When you say X, does that mean that you believe Y?” Not only does that kind of approach give the other party something to defend if they choose, but if they have misstated or misrepresented themselves in some way, they can fix that impression.
[disclaimer]
All the above being said, I am not above making errors in judgement, or going off half-cocked, or getting my buttons unintentionally pushed once in a while. I’ve been tactless on occasion and taken offense when none was meant. It is very likely that some or all of these things will be repeated at some time in the future, regardless of my efforts to the contrary.
[/disclaimer]
Sigh you don’t get it do you? Your condensending attitude is disgusting and offensive.
Let’s take that quote and substitute any old word for Moromn.
“But I have stated before that every day Blacks are wonderful people.”
“But I have stated before that every day homosexuals are wonderful”
That’s like saying “I’m not racist! I have black friends!”
The more you talk, the more bigoted you appear. Maybe you oughta just shut the fuck up. Email Tuba and ask her to unregister your name, please. Do us all that one small favor.
Not to be mushy or anything, but andros, I consider that one of the best compliments I’ve ever received. Thank you.
N2K
Damn straight. God damn straight. I absolutely resent black people who are ‘uppity’. Black people are fit for sports and watermelon eating and that’s it.
Where the fuck do you get off thinking I resent black achievement? Where the fuck do you get off thinking that I take pride in African-Americans failing? Where the fuck do you get off thinking that somehow I’ve got some sort of solidarity with my white brethren, and if Gore (God forbid) wins the election this fall, I’ll console myself with the thought “At least it wasn’t some sort of darkie.”
Fuck you. Fuck you high, fuck you low, and fuck you sideways. I do not resent black achievement. I have worked for black people, and taken pride in their awards and promotions. I have supervised black people, and taken pride in them doing their jobs well and being rewarded for it.
But now you want to castigate me as “holding people back”, as if I’m only happy if Sambo can stay down on the plantation picking cotton. Fuck you. I want a color blind society, where it doesn’t matter what the color of one’s skin is. And I think that affirmative action just acts as a reminder, a constant warning to African-Americans that they’ll never truly get anywhere in a white society. And I think that’s bullshit, and that such an attitude just makes the failure of African-Americans more likely. Can you get that through your thick skull?
Yes, a few blacks get into jobs they couldn’t have gotten otherwise. But they don’t get those jobs on their skills, they get them on their color, and that’s just as offensive to Dr. King’s memory as a white person getting their job on color. And those blacks who got their jobs on merit begin to wonder whether they truly did get their jobs on merit, or whether it was just to meet the company’s quota. And so all African-Americans lose self-esteem and self-confidence in the hopes of giving a few jobs they are not necessarily qualified upon.
Do I then consign all blacks to the ghetto? No, and fuck you for suggesting I do. The problem of African-American poverty is not a problem of African-American poverty, but one of African-American poverty. But so long as we keep grouping all blacks together and stating that drugs and crime and inner-city decay is a ‘black’ problem and must be dealt with by solutions aimed at blacks, we continue to foster the image of all blacks as inner-city thugs who deal drugs, spit out babies, and abuse welfare. And that’s the attitude that you foster, N2K, by believing that blacks can’t fight for themselves, and that they need a white woman to help them out and gain them entry into the ‘white’ world, and that people like myself who believe in color-blindness and equality are actually secret bigots hoping to “keep the nigs in their place.”
I hope, one day, you offer your patronizing attitude on race to an African American who then tells you what kind of ignorant, cock-eyed, patronizing bitch you really are, and how the programs you support and demand and insist that all who oppose are racist are the things that kept that African American from having the self-confidence and self-respect he needed to actually make something of himself.
No, I forget you can’t read my mind when you read these posts, and I am oft too vague. Let me try again.
I was watching a movie, or reading a book, or some damn thing, and the Sheriff of a small sleepy town was very racist, even worse than Needs2Know. Anyway, when someone in the town accused him of being racist, he said “I’m not racist! I have black friends!” Of course, they were his “friends” because they were less uppity than other black people in town
Hmmm, it sounded better in my head, sorry.
Needs2Know reminds me of Scarlett O’Hara. She doesn’t think there is a problem with slavery etc etc, because black men and women were just dumb animals, who NEEDED the white man’s help.
Apparently N2K, the Southern Belle that she is, is of the same persuasion. Black men and women need all the help they can get from us white folk to crawl out of the ghetto. Because they are too stupid to do it on their own.
:rolleyes:
Thank you Ptahlis… for your rational and well thought out post. I on the other an not very rational and always extremely emotional. You’re right of course about affirmative action, it probably being a “band aid” kind of fix. Would be nice if they could find a way to right these kind of wrongs so everyone would benefit. I also have to thank you for not calling me an idiot or telling me fuck you. I appreciate your patience and admit that you are right. I am pretty stupid about a lot of my facts. I’ve also got no right to judge anyone. I’m often guilty myself of the very things you’ve mentioned. I think I can remember some of your previous posts being just like this one. I hope you won’t be offended if I consider you now one of the better people I’ve noticed on this board. My regards to you. I concede, you’re absolutely right and I’m wrong.
There’s a post in I think MPSIMS, that asks “What makes you evil”. The OP says that being on the internet makes her evil. She’s willing to say things to people that she’d never say to someone’s face or something to that effect. Looks to me like she isn’t the only one. I may be stupid and self righteous and even a little insane, but I don’t have to resort to simply saying fuck you, wonder if these guys had to wipe the spittle off their screens.
I said nothing on this thread that I wouldn’t have screamed in your fucking face had you dared to call me a racist.
In fact, my discourse here has probably been more rational and toned down because I had time to sit and think and formulate my opinions. Had you actually called me a racist to my face, I think I would have come up with a great deal worse to say about you, you prissy little cunt.
Glad to see you’ve dropped High Horse #1 (“This board is filled with racists!”) to try and make a getaway on High Horse #2 (“At least I was civil and rational in my discussion!”).
You joked with him humorously, and our intent was not to malign. Whether or not you agree with them, others have done the same thing to celebrities such as Richard Simmons. Both could be interpreted as mean-spirited and bigoted.
John…I admitted I was wrong. I also admit that often I just ain’t too bright. I don’t remember you from the other threads where affirmative action was being discussed. If you don’t like affirmative action or set asides for their obvious problems, then fine. But in those threads I detected from some others a very real resentment toward the people they were designed to help. If you aren’t one of those guys then good for you. But I’m not gonna apologize to someone that tells me fuck you.
So do we all agree, I was wrong there are no racists, bigots, or homophobes here at the SDMB. Or at least not in the sense that I was thinking of, because we all know that just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t necessarily make you a one. How’s that. Good enough for ya. I’m off the cross Esprix now you can stick it up your ass.
Although it doesn’t sound like you’re off that cross quite yet (“Fine, I was wrong, are you all happy now?”), “stick it up your ass” puts you on the same level as all those who you railed against for telling you to go fuck yourself.
N2K, I think you’re confusing race with class. Cuz when it comes right down to it, the only color that matters is green.
That said, I’d like to quote a Frank Zappa line:
“Saying you can’t understand me,
and all that other jive they hand me,
in the papers and TV,
and all that mass stupidity,
that seems to grow more every day,
each time you hear some nitwit say,
he wants to go an’ do you in,
cuz the color of your skin,
just don’t appeal to him,
don’t matter if you’re black or white,
because he’s out for blood tonight!”
The moral is, it ain’t about race, it’s about hate. And no matter what we do, there will still be hate. You can’t stop people from being people. And I think affirmative action only gives people more reason to hate eachother. Now, I live in Minneapolis Minnesota, so I can’t claim to understand what things are like down south. But I do think that things are slowly but surely getting better. The reason there’s so much homophobia now is because it’s finally been brought out into the open. It takes time for people to get used to eachother. But we’ve got all the time in the world. All’s we need now is patience.
Freaky…you’re probably right about that. Getting used to people’s differences and all that. Being exposed to more different types of people in the right atmosphere can make a huge difference in how you see things. When I was growing up my best friend’s sister was gay. She was about 6 years older than us. She used to take us places in her car when she was a teenager. She and her friends were already “out”. They were a lot of fun because they had always been tomboys, so were my girlfriend and I. They used to let us play softball and basketball with them. She was pretty good to us as older siblings go. They were very confident about who they were even back then, she and her friends. Actually my friend’s sister is still a really “cool” person, laid back, very dry sense of humor, easy person to like. Guess it’s a good thing that I had a good friend early on that was a great person and happened to be gay.