Didn’t want to hi-jack the thread on Dragon Age Inquisition. Basically the question is as the thread title - in Thedas, does your character believe in the existence of the Maker?
In Origins, Leliana debates the issue with Morrigan. Leliana’s belief is that the Maker exists and interferes - in that he gave her a vision about the Blight and to help the Hero of Ferelden. Later on you find he Ashes of Andraste, his Prophet, which do cure Arl Eamon.
The Chantry’s doctrine is that the Maker exists but does not interfere, but will return when their Chant of Light is sung from all corners of the world.
In Inquisition, Corypheus is very adamant that the Maker doesn’t exist, saying “Tell me… where is your Maker now? Call him, call down his wrath upon me! You cannot. For he does not exist!” He also claims that when he entered the Golden City he found it empty. “Beg that I succeed, for I have seen the throne of the gods, and it was empty.”
Also in Inquistion, Cass asks you point blank if you believe in the Maker, and of course you can give your position on being the Herald of Andraste. My Dalish Elf emphatically denied being holy in any way (correctly, as it turns out), but is agnostic on whether the Maker himself exists. We learn that Elven Gods exist, kinda. Solas says they weren’t ‘gods’ per se, and he would know.
At the vety least, the Chantry has a good track record for what they can find. They seem to be correst that Andraste was more than just some spell-slinging tart, that theDarkspawn are basically just cursed due to the arrogance and corruption of some Tevinter wizards, and a couple other things. You can argue over the existence of a Deity still, but presumably something unimaginably powerful somehow built the Golden City.
Further, Corypheus isn’t a character who can be trusted to say the truth, not even from his own PoV.
The Chantry cleric you meet fairly early in the game later suggests (given the right prompts) after the Haven attack that Corypheus deludes himself because it is easier than admitting that the Maker has directly spurned his attempts to reach the throne. Of course that can be just as much self-delusion as she accuses Corypheus of.
And, of course, if you accept that the Maker exists and influences the world then you can suggest that me ultimately beating Corypheus into a shapeless heap of meat and red lyrium shards is “wrath” enough without demanding that the Maker perform parlor tricks to prove his existence.
But I mainly voted yes because it’s a fantasy world and fantasy worlds generally have legitimate divine pantheons of some sort or another.
The Chantry’s doctrine isn’t just that the Maker doesn’t interfere, but that he abandoned the world altogether. I found this really compelling for some reason. I like the idea of a deity which purposefully turned its back on the world.
This is why it doesn’t really matter that Corypheus saw an empty throne. The Maker created the Fade and wouldn’t necessarily be stuck in the golden city. He might very well be living wherever he was before he created the golden city in the first place.
It’s also possible that Corypheus never made it to the actual golden city. You can’t ever be sure of anything in the Fade.
I am of the opinion that in a world that contains actual, demonstrable magic, there will still be people who will cling to bullshit. I’m not a believer myself, but I find the book of Exodus a powerful and important fable for reasons I don’t often hear discussed. As the Israelites traveled through the desert, for a while they had manna dropping from heaven, and they had God walking beside them as a pillar of flame. If I’m not mistaken, this is the most blatant exhibition of God’s power in the entire Abrahamic tradition. And very shortly after God stopped doing this, the Isrealites put up a golden calf and started worshiping it.
Of course they did. I mean, I would myself say that it’s crazy to have literally seen God in flamboyant clearly powerful action and then ever decide maybe he’s not all he’s cracked up to be. But I think the story understands humans correctly. People will reject evidence-based beliefs the moment you look away from them. In real life, we see that no matter how many wonders are produced by modern medicine, the people living better lives because of it will sneer and reach for unproven and unprovable remedies.
Now, in a fantasy realm, with actual fully and consistently demonstrable magic, I cannot but believe that people in large numbers are going to find unprovable bullshit to believe. In a world that contains actual self-consciously evil forces, people will make up reasons to demonize others.
In real life, miracles as evidence of religious claims are always dicey. Wishful thinking is always present, and narratives tend to be rigged to exclude alternate explanations. And in fact not only are alternate natural explanations possible, but even if you accept the possibility of the supernatural it only gets worse because suddenly you have to exclude an unknowably large number of alternate supernatural explanations as well.
Even if a world with commonplace magic doesn’t simply blur the distinction between natural and supernatural, you still have the problem that an effort to account for all this based on actual observable evidence will be undermined constantly by people pushing their wishful thinking fantasies, and not rarely the determine to murder people for disagreeing that comes with it.
That we’re talking about a fantasy realm therefore does not make the existence of a deity any more likely. The Maker is still a deity that appeals to the human desire for a lack of evidence. Divine explanation for events are no more evidentiary just because some people can pee fire. Miracles are no less subject to skeptical analysis or even to re-appropriation by people with other religious views than in the real world.
I’m leaning toward the maker existing, but not being what people think he is.
Almost everything that has happened in the past, Andraste, the blights, magic, lyrium etc, can be explained by the interaction between the fade and the physical world.
Whent hey interact unexpected things occur and the entities that live in both places are affected.
I guess I can’t help but put my real world feelings into the question as well, leaving my character indifferent to the maker. Why should anyone in Thedas worship an entity who doesn’t care about it’s creation? Who refuses to help us until everyone believes in him despite there not being very convincing evidence for his existence? If he wanted unthinking, superstitious sheep to worship him blindly, he doesn’t strike me as a being worthy fo worship, or even one who is ultimately good for the future of humanity/elven kind, etc,
Another thing: That his creation “surprised him” by choosing to believe in other gods or simply not believe in him, also shows a type of limit to this being. He apparently, at the very least, isn’t omniscient. to be fair though, I don’t think anyone in the games claims he is.
I’m more interested in the elven past. It looks like they had the ability to shape the fade, and travel within it, without causing anything like a blight. Would love to know how they did it and what their relationship with the fade was. It certainly doesn’t look like they believed in a “maker”. Although we haven’t been told enough about them to be sure of that, I guess.
I think he probably exists, but is unworthy of respect, much less worship. There’s also a distinct possibility that he was generated by the thoughts/beliefs/dreams of mortals rather being a genuine creator-god.
I only ever played dragon age origins, so it’s only based on this game only . I voted “He exists in another way”.
Surely, he exists. But very probably neither the chantry nor the like of Leliana have the slightest clue about what he really is/was. He’s unlikely to deserve worship, in any case. It’s unclear whether he’s still relevant. Possibly. But he abandoned his creation three times. Three because he also abandoned the demons (can’t remember how they’re called in-game), originally, when he felt like they weren’t really up to his standarts. So you can’t exactly rely on him. Some kind of very powerful, capricious, clock-maker, maybe.
My character was highly cynical, anyway, and would probably have qualified as “evil”.
Ooh, I like this angle. It’s been said many times that the fade is shaped by the dreams of mortals. It would be interesting if the maker is nothing more than the manifestation of mortal’s need to worship something.