Is the Landsmeet in Dragon Age just agonizing to anyone else? (Unboxed spoilers)

I’d have put this in the Dragon Age thread, but it’s kind of a zombie now – no surprise, since the game’s over a year old.

So, for spoiler space: I restarted playing Dragon Age when it started to get cold outside. Somehow now cold days equal playing Dragon Age in my brain, which I guess is no surprise considering it came out in November. I wanted to get a character all the way through all the downloadable content and everything. I know I won’t be able to put the character in DA2, but who knows, maybe I’ll get bennies for it. Maybe my decisions will have mattered.

Anyway –

I’m playing through as I sort of think the game intends, as a human noble. Female, too, and a cunning roguey hero who fully intends to be queen as soon as she finds out that her erstwhile boyfriend is the heir to the throne. She goes around doing the right thing mostly because it’s a good way to get people on her side (The golem thing is just creepy and will piss off a party member that just happens to be able to crush me in my sleep; Bhelen, however, will make things more interesting in Orzammar. Mages are ridiculously powerful, so let’s not massacre them. The cultists are idiots if they think that their dragon is Andraste, and you don’t get phenomenal cosmic power from idiots. Nobody wants werewolves on their side. Et cetera).

Meanwhile her family was murdered by her father’s friend and comrade in arms, down to her wee nephew, and all her new brothers and sisters just got betrayed along with the king when that asshole Loghain sounded the retreat. He sent assassins after her, he poisoned one of her allies, he lets his own people be tortured, sold into slavery, and murdered, he’s obviously gone mad with power…

And I can’t help feeling gutted when I execute him.

He retreated from the battle and watched the king die and honestly believed the Grey Wardens were responsible because he thought the true threat – the one he’d spent his life fighting – was elsewhere. He was still fighting the last war in his heart. He’d grown up on deprivation, on vassalage. He was one of the people who rose up and tore his country out of the hands of Orlais. He was a big damn hero and did more for the stability of Ferelden than the Grey Wardens ever did. When he says nobody else in the room has any right to make decisions about what happens to the country? He’s kind of right.

Apart from Ostagar – which is a big deal, but apart from that – the evil laid at his doorstep is mostly due to giving Howe power. There probably wasn’t anyone else sleazy enough in Ferelden to help him (which, let’s face it, is another indication that military genius he may be but he’s not very good at making the right kind of friends).

Every time I play it, I want to give him the chance to take the Oath. And every time I play it, I wuss out because I want to keep Alistair in the party and it’s impossible if you get Loghain. I would rather throw him in the tower with his daughter, even, to deal with if Alistair dies (which he never does, because I have a soft spot for the nug-head).

So thanks, Bioware. You made two characters who are so compelling I don’t want to leave either of them behind and then forced me to choose between them. This is why I keep buying your games, you realize. :mad: :stuck_out_tongue:

Eh - I don’t find Loghain all that sympathetic. (Not dinging Bioware - I don’t believe we’re meant to). Sure, Loghain is sincere in his belief that his actions are necessary to save his country, but that belief is the product of such willful neglect of the facts that it speaks poorly of his character, regardless of his heroism in the past war. So, too, does his conclusion that his beliefs justify his seizure of power by force.

If Bioware had a real-world historical antecedent in mind for Loghain, I suspect it was Marshall Petain - the national hero who, in a moment of crisis, let ambition and foolishness lead him to precisely the wrong decision. Loghain deserves a bad end, and when I play he damn well gets it.

What? The Grey Wardens are about destroying the blight not stabilizing countries. Also just about everything he does in game destabilizes the country. His actions wipe out half of the army and kill the king he then threatens and berates the nobles dividing their loyalties.

Kind of right only in that he betrayed the king and seized power that should have at most gone to his daughter.

He knew was Howe was up to he just turned a blind eye to it. He’s just as responsible.

He had goddamn monsters bursting out of the ground destroying half his country and he’s so worried about another nation he betrays everything he is supposed to be loyal to? He’s either evil or incredibility stupid.

He is also guilty of perjury, human (or, well, elven) trafficking and attempted murder - see his framing of Wardens for Ostagar, the Tevinter mages in the alienage, and his attempts on the lives of you and Arl Eamon with Antivan Crows and blood mages. He is monomaniacal in terms of Orlais - he stops Orlesian Gray Wardens, who come to help Ferelden, at the borders, letting his hatred interfere with his dealing of the real problem, destroying the Darkspawn.
Finish him!

Fuck him. Loghain possibly caused the Blight to spread and helped to get the king killed. I don’t usually replay single-player games, but I did for Dragon Age. Each time I went through, I killed Loghain. I found nothing sympathetic to him, but then again, I’m an emotional void that fails to connect with characters, even on their most basic level. Not only that, but he’s the douche compatriot of fellow-douche Arl Howe.
So, yeah. I’d have killed him thrice.

One thing that gets me about this game is how everyone acts like the king’s plan is a dumb idea. I honestly don’t see how he could have acted any other way. He had an invasion on his southern front. He moved quickly to cut it off skirmishing where he could and once the numbers became too big to handle he pulled back to the nearest fortified location and lured the enemy into a hammer and anvil trap. The only other choices would be to attack the enemy (which would have been stupid) or abandon the south. But the game plays it off like he was reckless and callow it really does a disservice to him.

He really made the best choices of his limited options in my opinion. Well other than trust his father’s best friend.

I don’t think people act like the king’s plan is dumb, they’re worried that he may be glory-blind (which he is, somewhat) and letting that influence him (which he’s not; what kills him is, as you point out, trusting the dude that’s supposed to be his best advisor) to put himself in danger (which he’s doing, but he’s not doing it stupidly, he’s surrounding himself by the best warriors he has).

I still wanna slap Ms. Little So Cutesy :stuck_out_tongue: they should give you that as an option…

Yeah, i felt no sympathy whatsoever for Loghain. I didn’t think he was a good character at all to be honest. Friendly tip for Bioware: bad guys usually don’t make you think “that’s the bad guy, i wonder how hes going to betray us all” the very second you see them.

Loghain is a traitor. In the developer diaries that were coming out before the game was released they explicitly said that the story was about a weakened nation struggling against the Blight and people taking advantage of the situation and making grabs for power. I assume that refers to Loghain and Howe.

I never have problems gutting the rat bastard- the only difficult decision is whether I should kill him myself or let Alistair do it.

He didn’t “honestly believe the Grey Wardens were responsible”, he was a snake in the grass willing to murder thousands- including his king- in exchange for a shot at becoming the de facto ruler. Don’t blame the country’s troubles on Howe: Loghain knew that the only way he’d get any supporters was to pay them off. Your family’s land was Howe’s price for loyalty.

The more agonizing choice in my opinion is when you have to choose who is to become king of Orzammar. Harrowomt is a good and honourable man, but he is too stuck in the old traditions that are slowly chocking the life out of Orzammar. Bhelen is an amoral bastard and a killer, but he’s willing to do the necessary changes to dwarven society it desperately needs. I chose Bhelen, even though he is an asshole.

It’s an easier choice if you’re playing the dwarf noble origin. :wink:

I flipped a coin at that point. They’re interchangeable, both would do something about the blight (that they constantly face). I ended up choosing Harrowmont every time I went through, though. I kinda liked killing the prince tot he dwarven throne, and then being able to walk around like nothing ever happened.

That was an easy choice for me, because it was just so incredibly obviously set out that I didn’t really feel anything about either decision. It’s as obvious a moral dilemma as you’re likely to get.

I just finished playing DA for the first time yesterday. I let Alistair kill Loghain. Alistair really seems to hate the idea of being king. Can you let princess whatsherface continue to rule and keep Alistair in your party? Is there any way to have both Alistair and Loghain?

Have fun.

Now my head hurts.

Yeah, no kidding. Hardened Alistair?

“Hardening” is something that you can do to characters in several Bioware games (Leliana and Alistair in DA, Garrus in ME/ME2 - there might be others I’m not aware of). At a certain point in the story the character will have some sort of moral crisis and you can cause them, through dialog, to either remain as they are or become “hardened”. For example, Alistair is normally a quirky jokester but a hardened Alistair is more grim and serious.

Everybody in ME 2 has a loyalty mission as does everybody in DAO.

Yes.

Why did you bring that up? o.O