In what way is trump illegitimate?

[Me_Billy]

@madmonk28

…If the majority of the people find their leader lacks legitimacy, then he is illegitimate.

They will after he cancels their health insurance, and cuts medicare, and social security.

He has already reversed a reduction in mortgage interest rates which would have saved homeowners a lot of money…

**Trump administration suspends mortgage premium rate cut **

Trump administration suspends mortgage premium rate cut

[Balthisar]

What’s this “impeachment” everyone is always talking about?

And for the “popular vote” argument, we all do know that it’s meaningless, right? I don’t mean just legally, but in general, too. If outcomes were based on the popular vote, campaigns would be vastly different, and results would be vastly different. There is literally (in the literal sense of the word) to no ability at all to assign any meaningful value to a popular vote while the electoral college exists.

[John_Mace]

@scr4

Look at the aggregated polls. Clinton was ahead by 5.6% on Oct. 27, the day before Comey’s announcement. A week later the gap had narrowed to 1.3%. That’s not conclusive proof, but I don’t recall any other event or news that could have moved the polls so much. I’m sure you recall Comey’s announcement dominated the political news that weekend.

There was an inflection point at about Oct 15, with Trump treading up and HRC trending down, and after that the polls pretty much continued their trend line, even reversing that trend (Trump down, Clinton up) just before the election.

[bump]

@Miller

This is the same Constitution that originally said that John Lewis was only 3/5 of a human and could legally be considered property. I can’t really fault him for not taking the position, “It’s in the Constitution, therefore its unquestionable truth.”

That’s patently retarded. You can’t have legal relativism within the context of a nation’s governmental and legal framework.

It IS the Constitution- the highest law of the land. It may not be absolute truth in a strict sense, but in a legal and governmental sense, it IS the final word, unless you can get a court case to the SCOTUS or an amendment of 3/4 of the states to change that.

It really doesn’t matter one fucking bit what John Lewis thinks of it- it trumps whatever historical ass-pain one group or another has about it. What it says, goes at this moment in time, and it says that the winner of the Electoral College is president, no matter what the popular vote tally is. End of story.

The Democrats need to get to work coming up with a compelling and ironclad legal argument, or they need to get to work taking over 38 state legislatures. Otherwise they need to STFU about this popular vote nonsense. IT DOESN’T MATTER. It may not be what they want, and it may not feel right, but it’s the way the laws are written, and no amount of butt-hurt whining and crying is going to change that.

[up_the_junction]

@bump

That’s patently retarded. You can’t have legal relativism within the context of a nation’s governmental and legal framework.

It IS the Constitution- the highest law of the land. It may not be absolute truth in a strict sense, but in a legal and governmental sense, it IS the final word, unless you can get a court case to the SCOTUS or an amendment of 3/4 of the states to change that.

Anyone living in a Parliamentary democracy wouldn’t shit on the US Constitution - look around the world, no country has ever followed the US system.

Trump is a symptom of an utterly inadequate corrupted system of government.

[John_Mace]

@madmonk28

What nonsense, we are talking about public perception of a politician in an ostensibly democratic nation, not findings in a court. If the majority of the people find their leader lacks legitimacy, then he is illegitimate.

That would mean Trump is legitimate, and Lewis is wrong.

[John_Mace]

@madmonk28

I think the charge that Trump is illegitimate is based on four ideas:

1. He won the electoral college, but Clinton won the most votes; in essence this is arguing that his presidency should have an asterisk in the history books;
2. There are questions whether the Russian government interfered in our election and more importantly, that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government to undermine our democracy;
3. He appears to be in violation of the constitution from day 1, by not severing his business ties in foreign countries; while it seems unlikely that the Republican controlled Congress is willing to pursue this matter, it doesn’t change the fact that Trump appears to be impeachable from day 1;
4. He has repeatedly violated the norms of our democracy including calling on his supporters to commit acts of violence. Note, I’m not only saying that Trump supporters have committed acts of violence, but that Trump himself has called for violence.

What I think people are trying to convey with the charge that Trump is not a legitimate president is that because of these four things, he does not have a political mandate; that members of Congress and state governors and legislators should not interpret Trump’s win as a blank check to push through his radical agenda. Constantly reinforcing this message will be important in trying to hamstring Trump and prevent his most egregious abuses.

Wouldn’t it be a whole lot simpler, then, to say that Trump doesn’t have a mandate instead of making oneself look like a fool? Besides, the only item in your list that is actually related to a mandate is #1. The Second item is pure speculation (I don’t know, but people are saying it), the 3rd item is factually incorrect, and the 4th has nothing to do with the vote tally-- are their people claiming they couldn’t or didn’t vote for Clinton for fear of being physically assaulted?

[madmonk28]

Actually, it’s working. Look at the weekend. Trump gives a speech at the CIA, instead of talking about his super duper secret plan to defeat ISIS, he complained about the media under reporting the people at his inauguration. Then his spokesman meets with the press to claim that not only did the media underreport attendance at his inauguration, but that it was the largest inauguration audience in history. Trump is clearly bristling at the suggestion that he is not a legitimate president and it is causing him to behave even more erratically. The only people looking foolish are the people who voted for him.

[John_Mace]

I think the reason Trump didn’t talk about his super-secret plan to defeat ISIL is that he doesn’t have one. You think he does have one?

And since when has Trump not claimed that the media was biased agains him and under-reporting his support? There is nothing new about that.

[madmonk28]

There is something new about a president of the United States giving his first major address to the intelligence community raving like a madman about how unfair the press has been in reporting the number of people at his inauguration. There is something wrong with him and it seems reasonable to question his legitimacy given that he have been coopted by a hostile foreign government and seems to be in violation of the Constitution.

The fact that the charge elicits such strong reaction from both Trump and his supporters such a strong reaction demonstrates it’s working. There is something wrong with him and he is in the Oval Office.

[ataraxy22]

Trump has no moral authority. In that way, he is illegitimate.