Women have been excluded from combat because until fairly recently, they were viewed as a male’s property, or under a male’s care, much like minor children are. They were also considered to be not violent enough to be good soldiers. They still are considered to be at more risk of violence and rape than male soldiers. And a lot of people insist that if the sexes are mixed in a combat unity, that the men will be more concerned about protecting their female comrades than fighting the enemy. Yes, even today.
Women, even today, are seen as needing more protection from the dirty nasty fighting, because they just can’t handle it like men can. It’s not that they are considered more valuable, it’s because they are considered to be less competent. Don’t believe me? Go on a military forum sometime, and listen to a lot of the men on there. They’ll mostly say that women don’t belong in combat, and quite a few of them are unhappy about women in the military even in support roles.
Now, in the old days, they also needed just about every fertile woman to rebuild The Tribe, because the bottleneck was the number of wombs that could gestate the next generation. One man could fertilize quite a few women in a year, if he buckled down to it, but one woman could only have one (or maybe two or three) in a year.
“English Suffragettes of prominence, when questioned as to what they thought of the men who died on the Titanic in order that women might be saved, seem to have manifested a disposition, possibly significant, almost to resent the inquirer’s obvious belief that the display of chivalry was magnificent. While the strenuous ladies did not deny that the behaviour of the men was rather fine, they hinted that after all it only fulfilled a plain duty and therefore had not earned any particularly enthusiastic praise.
“As one of the suffragettes put the case, by natural law women and children should be saved first, the children because childhood is sacred, and the women because they are so necessary to the race that they cannot be spared. Another said: ‘It must be admitted that the lives of women are more useful to the race than the lives of men.”
– New York Times, April 19, 1912
That’s about the Titanic, of course, although it could have been written about the Costa Concordia. Is more evidence of a popular belief in male expendability needed?
This article might be of some interest in this debate. Long story short: only 70% of dentists said they would hire a male hygienist if he were the best possible candidate and only 17% had a male hygienist currently on staff.
I have to say, I’ve had a male dental hygienist. After the initial shock (I thought that boobs were some sort of requirement), I really couldn’t tell the difference between him and the various female dental hygienists I’ve had, other than the lower voice. I keep my eyes shut during all dental procedures, in the vain hope that this will make everything disappear.
I’m sad, though, that there’s still a lot of prejudice against hiring males for this job. Or any job. I have not experienced a more satisfying dental cleaning when my hygienist has boobs. What I want is a gentle touch.
And on that note, the best person who has ever done a Pap smear on me was a male PA. He was gentle, but efficient, and that’s what I want when I get one of those procedures done.
Which would be more useful if women were more heavily represented in the more dangerous sorts of jobs. Truly, the greatest Men’s Rights organisation is the Health and Safety Executive.
See this Canadian report on the plight of male victims of child abuse, reporting along with the rest that male children are likely to be victims of more severe abuse but are only a fifth as likely to be removed from their abusers into protection.
That there isn’t any real, genuine concern about the disparity in average life-spans between men and women when there is concern between a similar disparity between whites and blacks.
I’ve been somewhat reluctant to post in this thread again because of all the vitriol flying about, but I’ve been mulling its contents over and feel I should post some thoughts, take them as you will.
Regarding feminism I think the major problem most men have is when it moves, or appears to move, from the purpose of achieving equality between the sexes to promoting womens rights over mens. Someone upthread posted to the effect that they are a believer in equality between men and women, but equality for women foremost (I can’t recall the exact post and don’t have much time to go looking for it but will do so if necessary).
I recall a conversation I had with a colleague at work recently where she casually stated that she believed female employees should have preference over males when it came to booking leave. When I contested her on this she seemed surprised that the idea should even be contentious and dismissed my objections. What happens when someone with an attitude like this gets into a position of power and responsiblity and are able to act on them. If such a woman gives first preference to other women in a manner discriminating against men then surely that is sexist behaviour by any reasonable definition of the word?
In a second incident that comes to mind while having lunch in the canteen a call came in that an individual was looking for assistance and advice. One of my colleagues volunteered to go and help but returned shortly afterwards somewhat irritated as the person had a gender-neutral name and she had assumed it was a woman but it was actually an elderly gentleman, and if she had known that she wouldn’t have interrupted her lunch. I was taken aback as unlike the woman in the example above I would consider this person to be a friend and are on like mind on most matters. When I questioned her on what difference the gender of the person should make on whether they require assistance and the level of the service they receive she stated something along the lines that that men should be capable of looking after themselves. I suggested that the very fact that he had come looking for assistance suggested that he felt incapable of solving his problems and required help, and he should receive a sympathetic ear as much as any woman.
While I had many interesting and informative debates on a wide variety of subjects with this second colleague I discovered that attempting to discuss issues related to sex-based equal rights quickly resulted in mutual incomprehension and hurt feelings. It was the one subject we couldn’t discuss, and I found that a pity.
A further problem I suggest is that often this subject treats men and women as two undifferentiated groups without taking individual circumstances into consideration, plenty of men have had a more difficult experience of life than plenty of women but it often comes across, or is outright stated, that if you are male you really don’t have anything to complain about because women have it worse.
I am not female, it would be presumptious of me to assume I understand the difficulties and problems women experience in life but do the female participants in this thread accept that they also do not understand the difficulties and problems men experience in life? Men have social expectations and ‘roles’ to fulfill that women do not and sometimes men find it difficult to live up to them (or find them downright unfair). It sometimes appears that some women lack the interest or will to understand that men also sometimes struggle, have difficulties and require help. And often its more difficult for a man to reach out for help from others because it is seen as a sign of weakness and ‘unmanly’.
This can be seen in statistics on suicide, the belief that women often use suicide as a cry for help while men just go out and do it is something of a truism.
There is more help, empathy and understanding for women, or at least the perception thereof.
As for my opinion of women I’m going to quote something a member of this forum said in a similar discussion some time ago when asked her opinion of men, “I like, respect and admire *(wo)*men, they’re the other half of the goddamn species, and I’m not going to dismiss a single person on account of their gender.” (paraphrased)
Because while women have been historically treated as valuable property, men have been treated as disposable resources, or as outright garbage to be disposed of. Neither is desirable, yet only women are supposed to complain about how they have been treated.
That’s in part because the evidence is that the difference is at least partly biological. There’s been studies of monks and nuns (who unlike most groups males and females live essentially the same way), and women still live longer. And the male tendency to take more risks than women is to a fair degree a self inflicted problem.
Indeed, Cornel West for instance is the only famous proponent that I am familiar with of the attempt to redefine racism. And even he concedes that in cases where the black person truly has power, for instance in some physical confrontations, the black person is capable of being racist.
So according to at least that particular user of the “academic” rebranding of institutionalized prejudice, in that case she would be sexist.
This thread is a little unbelieveable to me. For one thing, men, if you want to start a men’s movement, then do it. We neither have to justify it to women, nor do we need their permission. It’s not like they asked our permission to start the women’s movement. They didn’t need it.
For another thing, stop being whiny bitches. Real men don’t complain about their lot, they do what it takes to improve it.
Lastly, I’d love to find out why it is that men have traditionally gone to war. I’m sure that the truth is something other than “Everyone hates me.”
By that rationale, I’m assuming that you also think that “Real women” also shouldn’t complain about their lot. “Do what it takes to improve it” is a great coverall mantra, I’ll concede that.
Well shucks, I don’t know. Could it possibly be that if you were a young Viking male during the Middle Ages you were simply expected to get in the longboat and not ask any questions?
Isn’t part of the problem that men aren’t encouraged to talk about or discuss their problems (perceived or actual). If they do its dismissed or mocked as whining, complaining or not living up to the image of masculinity (being a ‘real man’ whatever that is). So where it may be socially acceptable for a woman to talk about her problems a man sometimes doesn’t (or believes he doesn’t) have that outlet, so he takes action all right, he goes off and kills himself. An extreme example yes, but also one that happens with disturbing frequency.
I don’t want to be a ‘real man’, I don’t have to prove my masculinity to anyone, I’d rather simply be a decent human being.
Personally I don’t think we need a mens or a womens movement but rather a movement encompassing equality and equal opportunity for both genders, perhaps we could call it ‘Humanism’ (or is that already taken?)
Thanks for that. It is irritating. The sad part is that chick doesn’t even need to be a feminist. She has got a nice rack and could really be something if she grew her hair out and got a nose job.
I think you mean refute, not rebuke. And there’s only one of her, so it’s woman, not women. There’s no such thing as “a women.”
But anyway, not really.
No one man speaks for all men, and similarly, no one woman speaks for all women. You’re engaging here in the same sort of essentializing behavior that you think you’re fighting against.
As it happens, i agree with some of the points she makes, and not with others. But that doesn’t mean she is somehow irrefutable because she happens to be a woman.
You are too funny.
It’s not even clear that you actually listened to what she was saying, because she is actually agreeing that men get the short end of the stick. She’s supporting the sort of argument that you have been making in this thread. But you dismiss her because of how she looks, and you also seem to assume that feminism is somehow something that only unattractive women need be interested in. You’re impossible to take seriously.
mhendo, you have to lighten up sometimes. That was a joke and supposed to be an obvious one. I am raising two daughters and I was raised by an extremely strong mother. It was just in good fun. I did listen to the whole thing BTW and agreed with much of it.