In what ways are men discriminated against?

[mhendo]

@Shagnasty

mhendo, you have to lighten up sometimes. That was a joke and supposed to be an obvious one.

Coming from you, given your posting history, the joke was not at all obvious.

FWIW.

[Ibanez]

@mhendo

I think you mean refute, not rebuke. And there’s only one of her, so it’s woman, not women. There’s no such thing as “a women.”

But anyway, not really.

No one man speaks for all men, and similarly, no one woman speaks for all women. You’re engaging here in the same sort of essentializing behavior that you think you’re fighting against.

As it happens, i agree with some of the points she makes, and not with others. But that doesn’t mean she is somehow irrefutable because she happens to be a woman.You are too funny.

Well you almost had me convinced, until I noticed you forgot to capitalize your little ‘i’ there. tsk tsk.

[Lynn_Bodoni]

@mhendo

Coming from you, given your posting history, the joke was not at all obvious.

FWIW.

It certainly wasn’t an obvious joke to me, either.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@stpauler

I’d say cross-dressing is still a huge one. Most people wouldn’t bat an eye if a woman wore properly fitting men’s pants or shirt to work. If a man decided to wear a dress or skirt or high heels, well, they’d be noticed at a minimum.

Male to female transgenderism, as in wearing actual skirts or dresses, seems to be about specifically wishing to assume the appearance of the other gender (at least in my not-particularly-informed opinion). But when it comes to fashion directed specifically at males, it’s hard to deny that it’s generally stultifyingly and unrelentingly modest–particularly when it comes to workout gear and general casual attire. I think it’s arguable that these cultural standards come down to the *anti-*objectification of men: our bodies are too ugly to be seen. With the increasing prevalence of obesity in the general population, maybe most of us are too ugly to be seen. What’s changed though is that it’s become far more difficult for the non-obese to opt not to be covered up at all times.

[AqualungBats5th]

@Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus

Male to female transgenderism, as in wearing actual skirts or dresses, seems to be about specifically wishing to assume the appearance of the other gender (at least in my not-particularly-informed opinion).

Not particularly informed is a stunning understatement in this case. A trans woman’s identification as a woman has zero to do with what she chooses to wear.

Frankly, st pauler’s suggestion illustrates exactly what some of us are arguing in this thread. Yes, wearing certain clothing is socially taboo for men and people assigned male at birth. When someone who IDs as a man gets flack for this, he is being discriminated against for being a man and doing something a man is “not supposed to do”. But it is not “misandry”. This is not happening because of something inherent to maleness/manhood. Looking at this from a larger social context, it’s obvious that it’s based on equal parts misogyny and homophobia.

and with that in mind:

@Disposable Hero

Isn’t part of the problem that men aren’t encouraged to talk about or discuss their problems (perceived or actual). If they do its dismissed or mocked as whining, complaining or not living up to the image of masculinity (being a ‘real man’ whatever that is). So where it may be socially acceptable for a woman to talk about her problems a man sometimes doesn’t (or believes he doesn’t) have that outlet, so he takes action all right, he goes off and kills himself. An extreme example yes, but also one that happens with disturbing frequency.

Yes, absoutely. I agree 100% with this. Men need to be freed from oppressive gender roles just as much as women. How do you expect to acheive this, though, if you decide to ignore the patriarchal structure of society?

[Spice_Weasel]

I used to work at a cafe/restaurant. The owner claimed he was desperately seeking a second person as a server, but when a guy came in looking for work, he said he wasn’t going to hire him because he was a man. According to him, customers don’t like to be served by men because women are sweeter, or something. It made me pretty mad.

[Molesworth_2]

When I was at uni, I took advanced economics and psychology classes with a friend called Jodie. Good times, but we both had problems with one particular psych assignment. I recall Jodie telling me, in her own words, that she had “turned on the tears” when applying for an extention. Which she got. She eventually got a mathematically impossible grade for that course. ie She got a “Credit” grade for the assignment and a “Credit” grade for the course overall, despite the fact that mathematically she should have needed to get 100% on that assignment to even scrape a “Pass” grade.

I went to the same (male) professor and applied for an extention on the same assignment. I told him that I was having difficulties due to the fact that I was both studying full-time and holding down a full-time job as well. I didn’t get an extention. He told me that maybe I just wasn’t cut out for the course, and that maybe I should just take a good hard look at myself.

Identical situation (apart from the way Jodie wasn’t working a 40 hour week, like I was). Totally different outcome.

Imagine that I’d “turned on the tears” like Jodie did. The professor probably would have called security…

[Atomic_Alex]

@AqualungBats5th

Yes, absoutely. I agree 100% with this. Men need to be freed from oppressive gender roles just as much as women. How do you expect to acheive this, though, if you decide to ignore the patriarchal structure of society?

By doing what I’ve always attempted to do, treating people decently regardless of their sex, gender, orientation, skin-colour, religion or any other factor and supporting people of like mind. My modest contribution to trying to make this world a better place to live in for everyone. I will accept the blame and the credit only for things I myself have done.

My objections come when supposed attempts at rectifying historical discrimination result in discrimination itself. In one job I worked out a group of people started at the same time, the women were given a private women-only conference where they were provided with information on how to progress up the career ladder and network within the company. Men weren’t allowed to participate with the implicit suggestion that by merely being male they already know how to do all that, I certainly didn’t.

Thankfully these meetings were cancelled after one of the participants wrote a strongly worded letter objecting to them.

I would suggest that the supposed partriarchal discrimination is more based on class and financial background than gender, most men just like most women won’t gain political or financial power and will have to work hard for a living.

We’re all in it together and I don’t think we should be dividing ourselves along sex-based lines, we’re on the same team. Or at least we should be.

[dngnb8]

@even_sven

This is a problem, but it is hardly as automatic and complete as it is played out. And mostly, it depends on who has been the primary care giver.

I’m following a very public custody battle right now between a prominent female professor with a six figure salary, and her semi-employed new immigrant ex husband. He has full custody, in part because he was a stay at home dad, in part because she has stated that she does not intend to honor any visitation schedule. She made domestic violence and sex abuse allegations. They were followed up on and found to be unsubstantiated. This further limited her access to the child, and I think she is on supervised visits now.

She has moved mountains to try to change this, but it remains firm. So no, I don’t believe that a woman always automatically gets the kids, or can always game the system.

This is an exception, not the rule. This would have to happen far more then an incidental case for me to believe times are changin’

[MandaJo]

@Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus

But when it comes to fashion directed specifically at males, it’s hard to deny that it’s generally stultifyingly and unrelentingly modest–particularly when it comes to workout gear and general casual attire. I think it’s arguable that these cultural standards come down to the *anti-*objectification of men: our bodies are too ugly to be seen. With the increasing prevalence of obesity in the general population, maybe most of us are too ugly to be seen. What’s changed though is that it’s become far more difficult for the non-obese to opt not to be covered up at all times.

I see it more as an expression of anxiety about homosexuality: there’s a concern that being immodest or interested in your own male form suggests you’re interested in other male forms. Think “metrosexual”: the term arose because the general sense was that there was something a little bit gay about a man who took an interest in grooming.

I think it’s also a holdover from the idea that men are supposed to attract women by being rich or powerful, not by being sexy–sex is something men pay for, in one way or another, and women tolerate for access to wealth or power. A man trying to look sexy must be trying to attract a man, because women aren’t into that anyway, not in any meaningful way. This is an attitude that is really unfair to both sexes, of course.

[blindboyard]

@Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus

Male to female transgenderism, as in wearing actual skirts or dresses, seems to be about specifically wishing to assume the appearance of the other gender (at least in my not-particularly-informed opinion). But when it comes to fashion directed specifically at males, it’s hard to deny that it’s generally stultifyingly and unrelentingly modest–particularly when it comes to workout gear and general casual attire. I think it’s arguable that these cultural standards come down to the *anti-*objectification of men: our bodies are too ugly to be seen. With the increasing prevalence of obesity in the general population, maybe most of us are too ugly to be seen. What’s changed though is that it’s become far more difficult for the non-obese to opt not to be covered up at all times.

1. It’s transvestism, not transgenderism.
2. It’s what got Joan of Arc burned at the stake.
3. There are even more morbidly obese women than men, and they don’t seem incapable of wearing disturbing revealing garmentry.