In Which I pit a Vegan (tame)

[alice_in_wonderland]

@Otto

Are you, in fact, high?

I was thinking the same thing.

Here I thought that not eating goose liver because the geese are force fed grains through a funnel was not that odd. Now it turns out that I’m a total nut bar. Good to know. Good to know.

[lezlers]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Her veganism could account for most other restrictions.

Hell no, it wouldn’t. Vegans eat flour. We eat everything but meat and dairy. Whackjobs like this chick give us a bad name.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Manda JO

Off topic, but related: does anyone know of a good site/book that discusses how to eat Vegan in a healthy manner?

Sure do: This web page is from the American Dietetic Association, about as reputable a group as you can get. A couple points.

First, even sven, I’m looking straight at you and squinting meaningfully when they say:

Many teens (ages 13 to 19) adopt a vegan diet because they view the use of animals for food to be against their moral beliefs.
…
data suggest that adopting a vegetarian diet does not lead to eating disorders (11).

Squinting. Meaningfully.

Second, check out this section, Manda Jo:

Caloric intake

Adequate caloric intake is essential to the growth of all children. The diet must have sufficient caloric density so that the child does not feel full before calories needs are met. To reduce bulk some refined grains can replace servings of whole grains; dried and cooked fruits can be substituted for some fresh fruits and vegetables. High fat foods should not be overly restricted. Foods such as seeds, nuts, and nut butters provide a concentrated source of calories as well as necessary minerals and protein. High fat foods such as ground flax seed and various vegetable oils aid in adequate caloric intake as well.

Protein
If caloric intake is adequate and the child is not eating an excessive amount of empty calorie foods, protein intake most likely will be adequate. The frequency of meals in a young child’s diet greatly assists in providing a variety of amino acids to be available for protein synthesis throughout the day. Legumes, grains, soy products, meat analogues, nut butters, dairy products, and eggs are all concentrated protein sources. Vegetarian children may get a significant amount of their protein requirement from grains and vegetables simply because of the large number of servings eaten per day.

So, high-fat foods are okay within reason; protein should not be an issue.

In addition:

Vegan sources of calcium for children include breastmilk, calcium-fortified juices and cereals; calcium-fortified soy and rice beverages; low oxalate vegetables like collard greens and bok choy; and blackstrap molasses. In addition, baked goods made with fortified vegetable milks can contribute significant amounts of calcium to the diet of children.
…
Vitamin D
In the southern US, sunshine can be an adequate source of vitamin D year-round.
…
Iron

Iron deficiency anemia is the most common childhood nutritional problem. While meat contains heme iron that is better absorbed than the non-heme iron found in plant foods, iron deficiency anemia is no more likely to occur in vegetarian than non-vegetarian children (1). Good iron sources include whole or enriched grains and grain products, iron-fortified cereals, legumes, and green leafy vegetables. Consuming foods rich in vitamin C at the same meal enhances non-heme iron absorption.

Another big concern, and mostly unfounded.

That said, I tried going vegan twice as a teenager, and each time, I had to abandon the project after a few days, when I started feeling literally faint (i.e., I found myself staggering). The second time, I thought I was paying very close attention to my diet, and the same thing still happened.

In his case, it may be worth finding out what he’s eating: is he eating mainly french fries and sodas? If so, that could contribute to a protein/iron deficiency. Is he focusing on one food group to the exclusion of others? Again, that could be a problem.

However, it may also be that he’s perfectly fine, and that you just associate a healthful look with the ruddy glow that comes from eating lots of beef. I know in college, I had professors who talked contemptuously about the wan, scrawny vegan students; but when I asked them for details, they had to admit that they’d never seen any sign that the vegans were any less healthy than the burgerchompers. Have you asked him how he’s feeling?

Daniel

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@lezlers

Hell no, it wouldn’t. Vegans eat flour.

Gosh, it’s funny that you quoted that sentence to disagree with, because surely you saw the sentence that appeared before it:

@me

She could have (or suffer from the delusion that she has) celiac disease, which would mean that flour is out.

(emphasis added).

And surely you saw the sentence that followed it:

@me

But the salt thing is pretty bizarre.

So, given these two sentences that sandwiched the one with which you disagreed, which of her food restrictions are left unexplained?

Here’s the list again: meat, gluten, flour, salt, butter, cheese, eggs, baked goods. Keep in mind that gluten and baked goods generally are related to flour.

Daniel

[lezlers]

@BlueKangaroo

A friend told me sugar can be out for some vegans and even “regular” vegetarians because of the bleaching process. She said it uses bonemeal somehow. Maybe that’s why fruits are in and “sugar” is out?

I don’t actually know about this, but that’s what I was told when I was trying to figure out how to make vegan brownies. She also said that sometimes chocolate is not vegan, from what she understands. However, neither of us is vegetarian of any stripe, much less vegan, so this could be incorrect.

Does anyone know about chocoalte and sugar being not vegan?

Either way, it sounds like she needs a different social outlet.

Dude, I have the best vegan brownie recipie. My meat eating S.O. begs me to make them regularly. I bring them to dinner parties all the time, and there’s never been a single one left on the tray. No one ever guesses they’re vegan.

The secret? Use blended silken tofu instead of eggs (it’s a binder and has no flavor), then use cocoa powder and chocolate chips. My email is in my profile if you want the actual recipe.

Actually, blended silken tofu can be used instead of eggs in any recipe that’s calling for eggs as a binder. You know, if you’re ever cooking for a vegan.

[Guinastasia]

@Otto

So if I don’t eat veal because I don’t like the taste I’m normal but if I don’t eat veal because it’s derived from calves who suffer their entire lives from being chained up in little boxes I have an eating disorder? Are you, in fact, high?

Could you please do me a personal favor and never, ever purport to speak on the topic of vegetarianism again in your entire life? I have enough trouble explaining it without nutters like you out there falsely claiming that it’s an eating disorder. Just shut up.

Yeah, what about all those Jews-massive eating disorder right there!

:dubious:

[lezlers]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Gosh, it’s funny that you quoted that sentence to disagree with, because surely you saw the sentence that appeared before it:

(emphasis added).

And surely you saw the sentence that followed it:

So, given these two sentences that sandwiched the one with which you disagreed, which of her food restrictions are left unexplained?

Here’s the list again: meat, gluten, flour, salt, butter, cheese, eggs, baked goods. Keep in mind that gluten and baked goods generally are related to flour.

Daniel

Sorry, I was scanning. Obviously not very closely. My bad, didn’t mean to offend. I tend to react quickly when I think someone is grossly misrepresenting veganism. I’ll read more carefully next time.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

If we’re giving Vegan recipes, I won’t give mine because I don’t have a copy. But it’s in Cooking with Tofu, a cookbook published by The Farm (the hippie commune my parents used to live on). It has six ingredients:
-Tofu
-Water
-Oil
-Sugar
-Lemon Juice
-Vanilla
in quantities I don’t remember. You blend it up and bake it like a cheesecake in a graham cracker crust.

The flavor is different from a regular cheesecake, and the texture is different, too; but neither difference is unpleasant, and it’s so much lighter than a regular cheesecake that you can eat more of it. With a fruit topping, it’s really amazingly good, and is the only vegan dessert that I’ll still make.

Daniel

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@lezlers

Sorry, I was scanning. Obviously not very closely. My bad, didn’t mean to offend. I tend to react quickly when I think someone is grossly misrepresenting veganism. I’ll read more carefully next time.

No problem, and sorry for my snarky reaction, too. Given my response to even sven, I can’t blame others for their irritability when folks appear to be insulting those of us with pathological eating disorders.

Daniel

[even_sven]

Oh come on! Kosher=OK. Vegetarian=OK. Atkins=OK. Low fat=OK. No soy=OK Low fat kosher soy-free vegetarian Atkins=probably a weirdo.

[Guinastasia]

@even sven

Oh come on! Kosher=OK. Vegetarian=OK. Atkins=OK. Low fat=OK. No soy=OK Low fat kosher soy-free vegetarian Atkins=probably a weirdo.

Well, no shit. But you said:

but since veganism (and vegetarianism, for that matter) is a bit of an eating disorder on it’s own,

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@even sven

Oh come on! Kosher=OK. Vegetarian=OK. Atkins=OK. Low fat=OK. No soy=OK Low fat kosher soy-free vegetarian Atkins=probably a weirdo.

No, you come on yourself. “Disorder” is a medical term, and the medical people say that “adopting a vegetarian diet does not lead to eating disorders.” You were talking out your ass in a stupid and offensive manner. A sheepish, “Oops, I was wrong,” is your best bet now. Or, if you prefer, you could mulishly defend an idiotic position, backing into a corner for the next seven pages of a trainwreck thread, changing your position slightly each time and ignoring everyone who comes in to tell you how wrong you are.

It’s your monkey, sven. Choose wisely.

Daniel

[DeadlyAccurate]

@lezlers

Dude, I have the best vegan brownie recipie. My meat eating S.O. begs me to make them regularly. I bring them to dinner parties all the time, and there’s never been a single one left on the tray. No one ever guesses they’re vegan.

The secret? Use blended silken tofu instead of eggs (it’s a binder and has no flavor), then use cocoa powder and chocolate chips. My email is in my profile if you want the actual recipe.

Actually, blended silken tofu can be used instead of eggs in any recipe that’s calling for eggs as a binder. You know, if you’re ever cooking for a vegan.

I tried to email you, but the email came back. I would like the recipe.

[BlueKangaroo]

lezlers, I’ve tried to send you a couple of e-mails, but they both bounced. Could you e-mail me the recipe? Or, if you’d prefer, one of us can start a cafe thread, then we can both harass LHoD until he posts that vegan cheesecake recipe…

[BlueKangaroo]

And with DeadlyAccurate’s request, I’ve just made that thread.

lezlers and LHoD, I eagerly await your recipes!

[Mama_Tiger]

With apologies to BlueKangaroo, that link should be:

that thread.

Amazing what one missing letter can do.

Just out of curiosity, lezlers, if the brownies are made with chocolate chips, how does that get around the issue that chocolate has dairy products in it?

[BlueKangaroo]

Thanks, Mama Tiger. That’s what I get for using quick reply for anything more complicatied than bold.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Mama Tiger

Just out of curiosity, lezlers, if the brownies are made with chocolate chips, how does that get around the issue that chocolate has dairy products in it?

Most bittersweet and semisweet chocolate is nondairy; as long as you’re either willing to put up with cowbonified sugar or nasty waxlike Vegan chocolate chips, you’re in the clear.

Daniel

[MandaJo]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Sure do: This web page is from the American Dietetic Association, about as reputable a group as you can get.

Thanks.

In his case, it may be worth finding out what he’s eating: is he eating mainly french fries and sodas? If so, that could contribute to a protein/iron deficiency.

I think he’s mostly eating fruits and vegtables: I am really less worried about his protien intake and more worried about his fat/carb intake. He doesn’t eat junk, ever, and he’s presumably going to be starting a major growth spurt any day now (he’s hte age for it, and hasn’t had one yet)

However, it may also be that he’s perfectly fine, and that you just associate a healthful look with the ruddy glow that comes from eating lots of beef. I know in college, I had professors who talked contemptuously about the wan, scrawny vegan students; but when I asked them for details, they had to admit that they’d never seen any sign that the vegans were any less healthy than the burgerchompers. Have you asked him how he’s feeling?

He’s my little pet: he lives in my room–he isn’t really even technically my student, just a friend to the kids I’ve got. (I teach juniors, he’s a sophmore, and good friends with a bunch of the now-seniors I taught last year). So we’ve talked a great deal about how he feels. He knows my concerns, though I’ve never tried to talk him out of the vegan thing. I don’t want him to stop it, I just want him to be smart about it. His grades are dropping and he looks tired a lot. This has been remarked on by several people that don’t know about hte vegan thing–he keeps very quiet about that. And like I said, I am not looking for hte “rudy glow” of meat eaters: he hasn’t eaten meat in years, since well before I knew him. It’s the vegan thing htat is new, and is the thing that concerns me.

Thanks for the link, though. I will forward it to him.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Manda JO

I think he’s mostly eating fruits and vegtables: I am really less worried about his protien intake and more worried about his fat/carb intake. He doesn’t eat junk, ever, and he’s presumably going to be starting a major growth spurt any day now (he’s hte age for it, and hasn’t had one yet).

Hmm. Obviously I am not a dietitian, but I think that one of my problems when I tried to go vegan was simply that I didn’t get enough calories. Is it possible that he’s going ultra-low-fat as well, and is starving himself?

It might be interesting to get him to keep a food calendar and figure out what his caloric intake is, and then compare that to what it should be. Or you could just keep a jar of peanut butter and some vegan crackers in the classroom :).

Good luck–it sounds like you’re doing right by him!

Daniel