vanilla,
there is no Original Sin in Judaism either (or in some forms of Christianity). Also, in Judaism you are judged by your deeds and your sins cannot be redeemed by another (not even the Messiah).
Is the God of Judaism different than the God of Christianity?
Possibly, but this quote came to mind immediately:
Doesn’t mean you’re incorrect, though. I don’t have the OT quotes that this would contradict with me, nor would I have clue #1 as to where to find them.
[Note: Just found a passage in Exodus 21:24 where Moses is laying out some rules and lays out his “eye for an eye” caveat. I’d wager it derives from Hammurabi, though.]
Augustine formulated the theory based on the following quotation of Paul’s:
“Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12).
There was no tradition of “Original Sin” (that is, the belief that sin is inherent to humans and that it cannot be expunged by will or good works) before him and even Augustine’s theory was rejected by Eastern Orthodoxy. There is certainly no such tradition in Judaism.
You know, I’ve long since stopped using a sig but if I used one, I’d ask your permission to borrow this.
If you choose to use a signature again, permission granted.
This guy ought to be defrocked.
“I’m sorry, but we require that our ordained ministers not be COMPLETE FUCKING IDIOTS. Hand over the robe.”
Of course it’s the same God. The God of Mohammed is the same as the God of Jesus and the God of Moses. That might not be what you believe, but it is what Muslims believe. All three religions trace their roots back to Abraham. Original sin v. salvation through works is just a matter of doctrine.
Look at it this way: do you believe that the God you worship is the same God that the Jews worship? Does the fact that most Jews disagree with you change that?
vanilla, Judaism is (to my understanding) a religion in which one is saved by works (obeying the Law), as well as having no original sin. Is the God of Judaism the same as the God of Christianity?
Pardon me for the hijack, but…
Heathen Shellfish.
…BAND NAME!
Pardon me for the hijack, but…
Heathen Shellfish.
…BAND NAME!
to answer all these related queries:
Yes, same God, but Jews don’t realize that Jesus is God also (the messiah).
I thought everybody knew this?
vanilla, I was just noting the inconsistency in what you had posted. You objected to Allah being the same God as Christianity’s, because Islam has salvation based on works and no concept of original sin.
Yet you accept the Jewish G-d being the same as the God of Christianity, despite the fact that Judaism has salvation based on works and no concept of original sin.
Do you see what I’m saying here?
jayjay: She has to accept that the deity of the New Testament is the same deity of the Old Testament or the validity of the New Testament is negated. Since Islam began after Christianity, the inconsistent response that the deity of Islam is not the same deity as that of the Old Testament (and therefore not of the New Testament either) is not problematic. There’s a cut-off on the timeline for the Fundamentalist to accept something.
Do I have that right, vanilla?
Monty, that still doesn’t follow, though. The Koran makes it quite clear that Allah is the same G-d that the Jews follow, by retelling several of the events of the Jewish Scriptures, which are included in the Bible. Islam recognizes both Moses and Jesus as prophets. It intimates that the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, Abraham’s son by Hagar. The connections are far too obvious for me to ignore in coming to a conclusion. Given that vanilla has always seemed very reasonable and open-minded for a Fundamentalist Christian, I just found the absurdity of the “different Gods” assertion coming out of her username to be strange.
jayjay: Please scope out my posting above again. You’ll notice that I said that position is inconsistent. It’s a matter of faith with some (probably many) Fundamentalists that Islam worships a different deity than that of Christianity.
Heck, the Koran makes it quite clear that the God of the Christians is the God of the Jews and the God of the Muslims.
vanilla is a pretty nice person. She does, however, backslide occasionally on her appraisals of other faith traditions. Usually she and I kid each other about that whenever either of us backslides on something relating to each of our individual faiths.
Ah…my mistake. I did miss that you called the response inconsistent. bows apologetically
I do think that vanilla is a very nice person. And much more rational than quite a few of her fellow FC who’ve poked their heads in here. That’s why the assertion she made struck me as uncharacteristic.
[hijack]You’d win the bet. Check out Laws 196 and 200 from the Code of Hammurabi:
A lot of Mosaic law was derived from Babylonian precedents. [further hijack]Indeed, that “Ten Commandments” judge in Alabama really should have erected a stele with Hammurabi’s code inscribed on it–featuring a portrait of the sun-god Shamash delivering the law code to Hammurabi , of course.[/further hijack][/hijack]
*well, you can’t “snip” a code that’s chiseled into basalt, now can you?
Well.
I cannot speak for all fundamentalists.
If God is the same God of the bible, new and old testaments, then He has a son named Jesus who is the savior, there is no salvation in any other name (its in the bible forget the verse).
I don’t know too much about Islam, I haven’t studied it.
Thanks for the compliments, (Monty is my long lost brother 6 days older)
And I may have gotten some of this idea from a book called The Name(I think) by a one Franklin Graham, who, I am guessing, is considered anti-Islam by folks here).
I don’t recall you ever backsliding on anything relating to my faith, actually.
You’ve never disparaged Christianity.
vanilla, what do you think is the difference between the God of islam and the God of Judaism?
(Franklin Graham is an idiot, btw. I’m sorry to be harsh but he is extremely uninformed and bigoted in his views on Islam. He quite simply doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about. He also thinks that Jews can’t go to heaven if that gives you some perspective. he’s basically a Jack Chick type of Christian)
