I spent a good portion of my misspent youth in the active duty army. I then stayed in the national guard till the present which is getting close to my old age. I started off in aviation, went into armor and I’m currently a combat engineer.
Both the army and marine corps have two ranks at pay grade E-9. Which rank you are depends on what position you are in. The Marine Corps has Sergeant Major and Master Gunnery Sergeant. The army has Sergeant Major(SGM) and Command Sergeant Major (CSM). For the army if you are a CSM you are the senior enlisted soldier in a unit battalion level and above. The CSM is the right hand of the commander and often speaks on his behalf. A SGM is a staff position not a command position. For instance the operations NCO in battalion and higher level headquarters will normally be a SGM. There is only one CSM at each level. There may be other E-9s. All of them (basically) get paid the same. It is similar in the Marines.
Although it is up to the individual I have never seen a first sergeant that had a problem with being called Top including me for the year I was a first sergeant as an E7.
Does this mean you held the billet of a 1stSgt while an SFC? If so then while you might be the unit’s 1stSgt and you might be referred to as the unit’s 1stSgt, you would be addressed as SFC Loach, not 1stSgt Loach. A billet may rate a specific rank, but one who holds such a billet is addressed by their actual rank, not by the billet’s rated rank.
Mark 19: fair enough. I fired a few rounds at the Staff NCO academy; basically an infantry training school (but I was artillery FDC, not a ground-pounder). It never jammed. I kept the ammo cans, those are great ones to have.
M203: not just the thoonk sound it makes when firing, but the WHOMP sound it makes when the grenades land. Yeah, baby. Much more portable, too. You can sleep with one.
Ok. This has been explained to me often enough that I can refocus my question to ask that it be explained one more time, but differently:
I mentioned that my buddy–the Master Gunnery Sgt.–was in the field, trying to kill people personally, stay alive, keep his men alive, direct assaults and snatches, etc. etc., actively in the dirt. I’m sure he also sat around a table with people in starched uniforms preparing and advising for these missions. (Actually, I’m not so sure, hence this post.)
Is the amount of time spent with men in starched uniforms–my ABSURD and SIMPLISTIC images, just for the moment–what you are talking about, what is part of the definition between “staff” and"command?" Ie, a CSM and a SGM, in the Army?
Or have I grabbed the wrong end of the stick entirely?
A command post is like an executive in a business. It usually means ordering everyone beneath your rank.
A staff post is like an adviser or someone in charge of an ancillary function.
So, in a battalion, the lieutenant colonel in charge of the whole unit would be in a command position. The captains in charge of each company and the lieutenants in charge of each platoon are also in command posts.
That lieutenant colonel would have senior helpers. He would likely have a major handling operations, a captain handling intelligence and another captain handling logistics. Those are staff positions.
As you go up in unit size, the complexity increases and the number of staff positions increases. I’m pretty sure that the officer in charge of operations for a brigade-level unit has people directly under him.
Just like a boss in a small restaurant can handle all boss-functions but a boss in charge of MacDonald’s Inc. has to have a VP in charge of marketing, a legal VP, a finance VP, a logistics VP etc because he couldn’t possibly have the time, scope and breadth to do it all himself.
Or think of the US president, he has people who don’t have any direct authority over gov’t policies but they collect and analyze info, advise him and prepare plans for him and monitor them. That’s the equivalent of a staff position.
The staff system is (unsurprisingly) a German invention. They wanted good planning and organization for war instead of winging it.
Before I go off to Wiki and begin thinking more about your post: this notion I have of who is in the dirt and who stays back: should I stay with it?
In Band of Brothers there’s a scene where a newly promoted major (?) I think–the star character of the show) has to be restrained from “getting into the fight” of an assault because he’s now at a senior level.
Every rank, even Generals, I presume can say “gimme that rifle, I’m going in?”
You are assuming that everything is always formal. It is not. Particularly in close knit combat arms units. While in that position my commander would as likely call me over by saying “Hey First Sergeant” as he would call over his executive officer by saying “Hey XO” instead of 1LT Smith.
The Sergeant Major rank has been changed around throughout history. I don’t know when the current usage happened in the Marine Corps.
I will only answer for the Army since I know I will be 100% correct although I do believe it is similar in the Marines. Every officer command slot has an enlisted soldier as his right hand. A 2LT Platoon Leader has a Platoon Sergeant (usually a SFC). A Company Commander (Captain) has a First Sergeant (usually an E8 1SG). A Battalion Commander (LTC) has his Battalion CSM (E9). The Brigade Commander (COL) has the Brigade CSM. There are division and Corps CSMs. All the way up to the Army Chief of Staff and the Sergeant Major of the Army. At battalion and above there are other E9 slots. They will probably be in charge of some troops but they are not considered command slots because they are not slotted as the senior enlisted soldier at that level. For instance at battalion level in the operations section there is usually an operations Sergeant Major. He is the right hand man of the S-3 Operations Officer, usually a Major. One SGM I deployed with had the fulltime job of handling all the payroll for the entire National Guard within the state.
It is also similar at the E8 rank. If you are slotted as a company First Sergeant you pin on 1SG rank. If you are in a different position you wear Master Sergeant (MSG) rank.
OK, however the Marine Corps differs in that we tend to be more formal, at least in some ways. A Marine GySgt should be called either Gunny or Gunnery Sergeant, and SSgt should be called Staff Sergeant. But both should never be called Sarge or Sergeant. An Army SFC or SSG, however, can be and frequently are called Sarge or Sergeant.
Alessan can comment further on this, but I remember in another thread wondering about the absurd (to US) “familiarity” between ranks in forms of address using first names in the IDF. And in the thick of things, with unknown friendlies, deciding who “Yossi” was and how and if you should listen to him; I think Alessan said it was sometimes a matter of who sounded like they knew what they were talking about.
Weird.
Anyway, having added my (his ) 2¢ here, may I ask that this topic of forms of address be addressed in a separate thread? There certainly seems to be enough interest.
As the units become big enough that the CO gets an XO and eventually an operations and intel officer, what does the CO’s right hand NCO do that requires a high enlisted rank but not quite an officer? It seems like the XO and the top NCO would have overlapping activities. Aside from ceremonial duties and yelling orders during parades to spare the CO’s throat.
While that Major is likely touring the different staff positions to eventually become CO, what’s happening with the ops Sergeant Major? Do they get some training before taking that position and do they tend to remain in that position longer than the Operations Officer does in his? Is that the main purpose of staff NCOs, to ensure continuity of knowledge even if the officers move around?
Aside from platoon sergeants, what’s their actual authority in terms of giving orders?
I will only answer for the Army since I know I will be 100% correct although I do believe it is similar in the Marines. Every officer command slot has an enlisted soldier as his right hand. A 2LT Platoon Leader has a Platoon Sergeant (usually a SFC). A Company Commander (Captain) has a First Sergeant (usually an E8 1SG). A Battalion Commander (LTC) has his Battalion CSM (E9). The Brigade Commander (COL) has the Brigade CSM. There are division and Corps CSMs. All the way up to the Army Chief of Staff and the Sergeant Major of the Army. At battalion and above there are other E9 slots. They will probably be in charge of some troops but they are not considered command slots because they are not slotted as the senior enlisted soldier at that level. For instance at battalion level in the operations section there is usually an operations Sergeant Major. He is the right hand man of the S-3 Operations Officer, usually a Major. One SGM I deployed with had the fulltime job of handling all the payroll for the entire National Guard within the state.
An Army SFC or SSG are called “Sergeant” per regulation. So, it shouldn’t be viewed as any less formal than a Marine using the term, Staff Sergeant or Sergeant First Class. “Sarge” would be a bit informal.
I was a Gunny, OK retired, it was a few years ago, so I will want to look up the origins of the rank’s name. In my service there was a common saying that each person should know not only their job but the job of the person above you so that when that person goes down you are ready to step in. I was in artillery FDC, not infantry, so to your specific question it’s my take that the squad leader would know how to operate all weapons in his squad, rifle, SAW, grenade launcher, and then by extension so would the platoon sergeant. It behooves all grunts to know how to operate all weapons in their platoon. If I was a grunt, I would want to, definitely.
FDC = Fire Direction Control. The FDC takes the guns and targets locations as inputs, includes other input variables such as wind, weather, lattitude (for Coreolis effect), projectile weight, etc., and calculates the settings sent to the gun line in a Fire Mission Order. That order includes charge, deflection (e.g., azimuth) and quadrant elevation.
Bear covered it and he certainly has much more time in uniform than I have although I’m sure I started wearing it first. I don’t hear sarge much and usually with E5s. E7s tend to get more formal responses as senior NCOs. Calling a 1SG Top is common and not considered disrespectful although some might object.
The common joke answer is the CSM’s main duty is to yell at people to stay of his grass.
At the battalion level there really isn’t much overlap between the XO and the CSM. The XO runs the staff. The commander gives his intent and the XO makes sure that the different staff sections do their part to produce the necessary operations orders and to ensure that the battalion level logistics are handled correctly. The CSM is often the eyes of the commander when he is elsewhere. Mostly the CSM is the senior enlisted advisor of the unit. He works closely with (or yells at) the company 1SGs to ensure that unit and Army standards are maintained. He oversees the promotion, evaluation and counseling of soldiers and NCOs in the unit. He makes sure that NCOs are taking care of their troops. He is the mentor to the NCOs in the battalion or the commander’s attack dog to make sure things are done correctly. Even the lowest Lieutenant outranks the CSM but they quickly realize that is only a technicality.
The quick answer is the OPs SGM runs the TOC. The Tactical Operations Center is where the plans come together and are tracked. The SGM runs the day to day functions. Here is a good but jargon filled list of duties I found.
SGM. The SGM will supervise and focus his/her responsibilities on three (3) areas: the control of the
Tactical Assault Command post (TAC CP), Rear CP and the Tactical Command Post (TOC). During
tactical operations the SGM will remain with the tactical command post until the TOC jumps to a new
location. The SGM is the senior NCO in charge.
A brief description of the SGM duties and responsibilities of the command and control and organization
are outlined below.
(a) The Operations Sergeant Major is the overall NCOIC of TOC operations.
(b) Responsible for accountability and maintenance of the Assault CP and TAC equipment and
vehicle. Supervises precombat checks and precombat inspections (PCIs / PCCs).
(c) Deploys with the assault element as the operations sergeant major during tactical jumps.
(d) Monitors and records messages and operational overlays in the TOC.
(e) Assists the Battle Captain in all his duties.
(f) Responsible for coordinating and briefing displacement (jump TOC) procedures and quartering
party activities.
(g) Perform duties and responsibilities as operations sergeant/battle staff noncommissioned officer for
the TAC when operational.
(h) Responsible for assigning NCO on day/night shift.
(i) Assist the battle captain with rehearsals and execution of actual battle drills.
(j) Assist and supervises NCOs in the MDMP.
(k) Know where key people sleep (CDR, CSM, XO, key staff members) and know the time or critical
situation that requires them to be awakened. Tracks locations of all key leaders.
(l) Monitor situations. Ensure communications is maintained with attached, subordinate, adjacent
units and higher headquarters.
(m) Supervises the TOC security plan.
(m) Determines the appropriate configuration and placement of the TOC and all supporting vehicles
during setup. He or she supervises control over both the exterior and interior organization of the TOC
to include personnel, vehicles, and tents.
(n) The OPS SGM will ensure PCC/PCIs are conducted before any tactical / deployment is conducted.
(o) The SGM must ensure all information within the TOC (coming and going) is being disseminated
properly and in a timely manner from each slice element and to subordinate units.
(p) The SGM will maintain copies or CDs of all military manuals and Army regulations that are
unique to the command post and unit.
(q) The SGM will monitor and supervise the TOC information management
Distribution of messages and reports
Maps, graphics, and overlays (IAW FM 3-25.6 and FM 101-5-1 7
FRAGO control and distribution
Journals/journal files IAW AR 220-15
Record for information (RFI’s)
Battle tracking
Information flow
Conducting NCO huddles/meetings with NCO
(r) Conducts quality control with all staff sections, ensuring everyone is the same.
(s) Insures his or her personnel assigned attend the battle staff course.
) 2¢ here, may I ask that this topic of forms of address be addressed in a separate thread? There certainly seems to be enough interest.
“FDC”?