Intelligence and religion...

I AM asking everyone to think.

Has anyone other atheist here had a serious talk with a religious person they considered intelligent about how that person came to believe what they do?

My parents are both religious, or used to be. My Father seems to have pretty much abandoned his beliefs though he used to be an RLDS minister. Mom was Baptist and converted to RLDS when she married my father. My Father’s rather long and torturous mid-life crisis changed things. Dad had not been to church other than for marriages of friends and such in ten years. Mom goes occasionally to Catholic services or to service with friends of miscellaeous beliefs. She now preachers to me much more fervantly than ever about her belief that God talks to her on a daily basis. Dad has very little comment. I was named for David Ben Gurien because my father, at the time, wanted to send me the message that he thought a belief in God was important but that the variations of the many God believing religions was not so important. I guess I failed him there, but I think that he has lost his faith and just avoids the issue now. Some day when I get the chance for a serious one on one discussion with him I will ask him about this. He is a very intelligent man.

I am puzzled that so many intelligent people cling to their faith. I do not think, like the OP, that atheists are more intelligent than the religious. However, it puzzles me that intelligent people DO have faith in God. Perhaps because it is something taught at a very early age, and repeated ad nauseum, it becomes unquestionable. Perhaps, like a couple of individuals I know, they have powerful epiphanies. I don’t particularly want to go around asking people about this IRL because that is inviting the fundies to swarm about a spout inanity. I would like to see a few intelligent replies from the religious posters on this board.

Yes, I have. “Personal revelation” is the answer usually given. While I might think that their interpretation of what they thought and felt is suspect, I have no way of refuting personal revelation other than on, well, faith. Therefore, I have to allow the theist who claims such an experience the possibility that perhaps they did. I am not convinced, but that doesn’t prove the claim false. I have said and meant that I would like to think that there were something beyond oblivion after death, (although not the something some groups have promised me), and I understand the appeal that theism has, or at least the appeal it would have for me if I could believe in it. So perhaps I’ll receive a message from the divine someday. Who knows? I just don’t think it’s very likely is all, and until then I’ll stick to my unbelief.

me: What is this «ample evidence»?
jmullaney : I’d hate to bias any results. YMMV.

I hate to tell you this jmullaney but you’re not the first person to come to the SDMB and say “if you do such-and-such you will receive a proof of God’s existence”. Then when I ask “what proof would I get?” the answer is “I can’t tell you” or else “the proof will be that you will start believing in God”.

A belief in God is obviously not proof. If the answer is “I can’t tell you” then you are not letting us judge your scientific experience fairly. If your answer is “anything that happens after you follow my instructions will be proof that God exists”, then I’ll be willing to admit that you might be justified in saying that your experiment is failure-proof, but a reasonable observer might interpret the findings in a totally different manner.

Miracles?

VILE ORB says:

Why does it puzzle you, if not that you consider faith in God and intelligence to be incompatible? I am not asking to inflame; I’m truly curious, because despite your professing to the contrary, this puzzlement appears to be rather close to the position of the OP.

Is this not itself incompatible with intelligent thought – the acceptance of something merely because you’ve heard it a lot? Certainly it appears to stand for the premise that religion is unthinking if not unintelligent.

Some people do; many main-stream Christians do not – moderate Christianity does not require an epiphanic or conversion experience.

I can understand this. :slight_smile:

Okay, since you seem to be genuinely interested and not picking a fight . . . . I believe in God because, deep down, in a way I can’t coherently explain, I KNOW that He exists. Can I prove this? No. But when I ask myself whether He does, the answer I receive is a resounding “yes.” I also believe in God because I think I see His work around me – in love and in beauty and in the human quest for justice, none of which, IMO, are strictly necessary to simple propagation of the species. I believe in God because I see a near universal tendency to believe in the Divine, however it is perceived and described, and I have more faith in mankind than to believe that most of us (and most of us through history) are suffering from a mass delusion. I believe in God because I believe in the ultimate triumph of order over chaos, and because I do not believe in the randomness and ultimate purposelessness of the universe. I believe in God because my life is better and I am a better perso if I do than I imagine I would be if I did not. I believe in God because the idea of God to me embodies the idea of hope, and I would rather live my life with hope than without it.

I do not believe in God just because I was raised to. As a liberal Christian, I was raised to make up my own mind and to not accept any premise without question or thought. I do not believe in God because I had an epiphany; I did not. I do not contend that the reasons I give – and others may give – for believing in God may not be individually attacked, but I still DO believe.

I do not believe my belief is inconsistent with rational thought, since God is an inherently extra-rational concept, not amenable to true human understanding and not subject to the demands of human proof. I do not believe in God in the absence of evidence tending to prove His existence; rather, I find evidence tending to prove His existence where some others apparently do not. And, fortunately, I have not met many people who choose to confuse my faith with stupidity, though frankly I would think anyone who would make such a judgment of anyone else would obviously do so at their peril.

So there ya go.

psssst::: Gaudere, I already believe in God, so no need to do the experiment. But, if you should find yourself naked and hungry, my address is…

Can you really prove that one plus one equals two?
I mean, if you truly analyze the equation, aren’t we assuming that the person who developed mathematics knew what they were talking about? Maybe in a parallel world one plus one equals the letter L.

And yes, most of my philosophizing was done over a twelve pack and a cigar. :slight_smile:

My initial education of God was certainly imbedded in me during my youth. I proceeded to graduate from a SDA college and shortly thereafter separated myself more and more from religious institutions. My reasons for believing in God include:

A near death experience at two years of age when I was run over by a car. (not side swiped, run over in 1968, medicine was nowhere near what it is today) EEEK I just dated myself!

Hundreds of hours of alcohal induced theistic conversations over the years with my room mates of similar religious backgrounds. Always the same outcome, there is a God.

An ‘epiphany’ if you will, when I needed it most, including upon the death of my dog at age 14; loss of my first love - the c—, bitch, whore.

Finding my keys after prayer.:wink:

Money showing up quite unexpectedly when I need it most.

There is a feeling inside that you can only get when you feel the Holy Spirit filling you. A kind of lightness, where, for a short time, all your troubles seem to float away. Kind of like being drunk or high, but without the hangover.

The existence of all the living things on earth and how they work perfectly together in a balance that is simply inexplicable by any other means than that a Greater Being created them.

That no matter how atheistic, murderous, contemptable or horrific someone might be, they always come back to religion near the end of their life. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. There probably aren’t too many in prisons either, probably NONE on death row. Now, I grant you, this is probably because of an inability to accept that this short period on Earth is the end, but still, why come to God? Just in case?

It does nothing but good for anyone to believe in God. Short of lost opportunities for illegal or immoral acts, I lose nothing by believing in God. I feel better about my life and about the world for my belief in God. As do most others with religious beliefs, share a higher level of morality because of their belief in God. Not comparatively to atheists, but comparatively to themselves without God in their life.

Science is a good thing to study. It does not, however replace religion.

Atheism is the the epitamy of man’s inability to accept that there is any greater being than man. Atheism is the ultimate indulgance in egotism.

This proves to me that there is a God unless a theory other than Creationism or Evolution is offered. Man, a single species among millions, is the only species with the ability to reason. If there were any logic to the theory of Evolution, there would be multiple species with similar abilities. Find the Missing Link, until then Evolution is a hypothesis.

Please forgive me, I didn’t mean to make this a C-E thread.

I’ll retract that last portion. It really doesn’t add to my belief in God, I’ll save it for another time, another thread. Unless it’s too late.

No, no, jmullaney ran the experiment, you accepted is as valid, you must now believe that God wants you to give up all your possessions. <eg>

Pascal’s Wager is powerful for those weak in logic and/or conviction. So you think the fact that extremely few convicted murderers are atheist is proof of God? Heck, I kinda think that’s evidence for the “immorality of theists” arguement. :wink: It is true that the proportions of atheists/agnostics in prison is significantly lower than that of the general population in all the surveys I’ve seen…I was rather pleased with that, not that atheists are such a homogeneous group that I should rightfully be proud that fewer of my “people” are in jail. My skeptical side says that many prisoners likely profess a devout belief in God because it makes the parole board go easy on them. “He’s found Jesus! Obviously he has mended his ways, and is no longer a threat! We should forgive out fellow Christian.” As for the “no atheists in foxholes” bit, I’ve been in some very tight situations but never called on God, to my best recollection. Glitch, an erstwhile poster here, was once knifed in the back and had to crawl for help. But he says he never called on God.

It was never intended to, at least not when practised well. ::shrug:: But some of us do not believe in God and feel no need for religion.

Not true. Look at Christian Scientists, who die becuase they will not accept medical treatment. Look at all those who have committed atrocities in the Lord’s name. Look at the homosexuals who are filled with shame and misery becuase they feel their God considers who they love to be a sin. As a milder example, if God does not exist you’ve wasted a significant portion of your time calling on a nonexistent being. I can come up with many more such examples. So you cannot say “it does nothing but good for anyone to believe in God.” I won’t say it’s always bad, even if God does not exist, but it is nowhere near “nothing but good” for everyone.

Bullshit. Just because I have not seen sufficient evidenceof a higher being does not mean I am egotistical. Perhaps theists are egotistical because they believe they are God’s special bevoled creation, while atheists think they are the simple result of various events in a unintelligent universe. Which sounds more egotistical to you?

Yeah, and what’s with those platypus? If evolution were logical, lots of mammals would lay eggs. And what’s with the panda’s thumb? If evolution were logical, lots of species would develop a thumb from a bone spur. All species have unique attributes. (I wouldn’t even say chimps and gorillas can’t reason, either; they seem quite clever sometimes. They even make and use tools!) Reason may not even be the greatest attribute either; we seem to be hell-bent on destroying ourselves, while the beetles and bacteria have been around a lot longer, and will likely outlast us. They’re the evolutionary winners, if so. And as evidence, there are a heck of a lot of beetle species; it is a successful design that can adapt into a lot of niches. IIRC, the neanderthal were another intelligent humanoid, but we killed 'em off.

I beg of you, don’t tell me you subscribe to the “find the missing link” fallacy. You appear fairly well-spoken; I’d hate to think you accepted such a canard.

JAG - Your 1+1 example is a poor choice because 1+1=2 by definition. Most mathematical equations come down to definition, indeed in this universe it would be easy to define a system where 1+1=L, but in the system most commonly used, because it has proven useful and practical, 1+1=2.

As far as this deep down feeling etc. that you and others have described to me. I don’t feel it. I have sought it out. I was even once called to the RLDS priesthood, which involves at least two priesthood members independantly coming to the Pastor of the church having had inspiration by god that I should be given a particular office of the priesthood. This was when I was about 16 yrs. old and was still unsure of what I believed. Believe me, I did a lot of “soul searching” and praying. Having found no motivation to accept other than to make my parents happy, I still hadn’t given the pastor a response when, 5 years later, he died.

I see intelligent people who are religious. My puzzlement is a mixture of, “Are they as intelligent as I thought?” and, “Am I missing something?” So, my puzzlement is a bit of an insult to believers I suppose. Not really.

Intelligence doesn’t mean you understand everything equally. I cranked through most advanced mathematics but had a heck of a time with line integrals. I still don’t really understand them I just squeaked by on the test by going through memorized techniques (which didn’t get me all the answers but it got me enough to pass). A friend in the same class laughed at my struggles since that was the only part of the class that he DID understand. In the case of religion, maybe I understand or maybe I’m the one who doesn’t understand. It’s a puzzle. So, no insults implied at all.

Actually, now that I think about this again, I don’t really accept that I might be wrong here. So, maybe I am disrespecting the intelligent believers, but I don’t doubt that they are intelligent just because they have faith. I just think they are mistaken on this one point. Yes, I AM cocky. Hate me if you must. But I am also interested in hearing how you intelligent believers came by your faith so that I may better understand you and communicate with you and respect you.

Something deep down inside says it’s just RIGHT hunh? I assume you think that voice IS God speaking to you, as my mother does, or do you think that this is just a thing that YOU know deep in your core. Knowledge that you get from your soul? Knowledge that you get from a previous life? Knowledge that was planted in you by deep hypnosis as a toddler? You don’t care where it came from or what it is you just believe it? Sorry if I am insulting you with some of this. I really don’t want to start a fight and I really am interested in answers to my questions. I can see that a believer would feel sorry for me and would perhaps have a little less respect for me than for some who can hear their deep down voice. Can we say that the small dip in mutual respect-o-meter is approximately equal and not very significant? I will ignore it if you will.

As another point, just because something makes you feel good–or even act morally–that is not sufficient reason to believe it. It might make me feel really good about myself and the world to believe that I’m the greatest painter since Picasso. But should I believe that I am without sufficient evidence simply because it makes me feel good? Of course not. Should I believe in Santa Claus because it makes me feel good and it makes me more moral? Of course not.

Gaudere - JAG is a CPA by way of education. He is also a drinker of Coors Light, ugh. He frequently spouts fallacies that support his side of the issue before he has thoroughly investigated. This doesn’t mean he’s always wrong, but it weakens his debate sometimes. Still, he’s a friend of mine. I specifically invited him to the boards. See how open minded I am.

I am sure he can come up with something embarrassing to say about me, but I’m not sure anything is as embarrassing as drinking Coors Light by choice.

JAG - I urge you to drop this particular fallacy before it bites you. Stick to your deep inner voice. Don’t bother trying to find scientific corroboration.

Coors Light!!! ::shudder:: You know, when I did my mailbag article on light beer, I remember reading that Coors light tried to claim “first light beer” title, but it was rejected because they simply added water to their regular beer. :eek: (They don’t do that any more, but it’s a clear sign of their disrespect for the holy brew.)

Seriously, JAG, read all of the talk.origins FAQ or you are going to get your ass toasted here. I’m pretty nice; if David catches you posting stuff about “where’s the missing link?” there won’t be enough of you left to identify the remains.

Oh, and by the way, here’s all you ever wanted to know about transitional fossils (AKA “missing links”).

OSo jmullaney, you’re saying that if I follow your procedure God will then create a miracle to prove to me that he exists. That would be very impressive.

What constitutes a miracle?

Or, since it happened to you, what miracle did God create for you to convince you of his existence?

This is certainly true. As an avowed atheist myself, I’ve had an unusually large sample of atheists to look at…

Really, if I were going to make invidiuous blanket generalizations about the thought processes of believers vs. non-believers, I’d probably make an analogy with mental illness, not mental retardation.

To jmullaney:

I can provide you with empirical, experimental proof that there is no such thing as life after death. Everyone who has ever performed this experiment has been utterly convinced! All you have to do is die…

(Yeah, I know, technically, I don’t think all those people who died were really “convinced” of anything either.)

You could certainly make that case for Baptists and Methodists and Lutherans and Presbyterians, and I’d say you could throw in Catholics too. But I don’t think you can really say that Muslims and Catholics are just worshipping different versions of the same God, or Mormons and Baptists for that matter.

I think this has already been brought up, but… Polycarp, you are a Mormon, right?

In Memory of Atheists in Foxholes

Atheists in Foxholes

NTCOF Member Serves Our Country Proudly as An Atheist Soldier

with the general tone of the answers posted here that some people are. I grant you, they’ve been free of rancor, and that’s good, but we’ve had countless pointless digressions, anecdotes, and a silly claim of an exercise that will instill certainty of God’s existence.

The assumption of the OP (remember the OP?) is that religious belief correlates with intelligence. A review of articles that study this question was given by MaxTorque, and is a taken from this article. Yet none of those studies give the simple number that would answer the question: What exactly is the correlation between IQ and the extent of religious belief? 0.8? 0.3? What? Apparently, not even The Bell Curve mentioned this point, at least according to it’s reviews online.

The answer we want is a simple, single datum upon which we can base further questions as to why it might be so, and without which those questions are hard if not impossible to frame properly. The number will have to be corrected for various social factors, and some standardized measure of religiosity will have to be used, but neither of these are particularly difficult obstacles.

In fact, the LACK of such a number bespeaks the trepidation with which this subject has been approached.

Polycarp is Episcopalian, I believe.


Yer pal,
Satan

*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, four weeks, two days, 23 hours, 13 minutes and 0 seconds.
8558 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,069.84.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 10 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

::whoosh:: <grin>

jsutanotherguy says:

but i knew an atheist that had been in foxholes…

Originally posted by jmullaney

i have followed these steps on a few occassions in my life. ie, given away and sold all i’ve had, left everyone i knew behind, and wandered off to do what i’ve felt moved to do. [walked hundreds and hundreds of miles on one occassion. cycled thousands of miles on others.] i allowed significant periods of time. [more than six weeks.] did i observe or not observe a christian god in this time?? nope. not even close.

i have also met and talked to people that have followed the precise literal steps you suggest. one man had a college degree, a government position, and a family. he left everything. he walked around the country for 12 years, depending wholly upon the kindness of strangers for sustinence. he did not find a christian god.

here is his picture:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/9791/alwar.jpg

i’ve known and met others as well. in fact, of the perhaps hundreds i’ve known, i’m not aware of any that came to know a christian god as a result.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m hungry for a pepperoni roll…