I don’t profess to know what Christians in this country think, or what they do in other countries, I’m simply commenting on the results of a survey where people were asked themselves to say what they think and how it’s at odds with the doctrine of the religion they also claim to be part of.
There’s no point arguing with me about what defines a Christian as I don’t decide that, it’s decided by the authorities within the different sects of the religion and by those who study religion as an academic subject. Religions change over time and part of that is the beliefs of the people who hold them being at variance with doctrine, but it’s more usually as a result of political and cultural changes in wider society. Possibly we’re in the middle of an emergence of new forms of Christianity (modern secular Christianity or whatever it’ll be called by future historians) that will have a different commonly accepted definition of belief, including one that encompasses not believing Jesus is the son of God. Or maybe the UK is full of Gnostics and we just didn’t realise until now, I don’t know. My point is if you’re identifying as Christian/Church of England and you don’t believe in something that the Church requires you to, then you’re technically a heretic. If we were discussing Reform Judaism or Bahia or something, where once is free to make up their own interpretation of doctrine and scripture without reference to an outside authority, then I’d agree that it’s entirely up to the individual. But we’re talking about Christianity, and Christianity has for virtually its entire history had an official orthodoxy which if you didn’t agree with you were a heretic or you schismed into something new. Keep piling on, doesn’t stop you all being wrong.
For the record I don’t care what people define themselves as, or whether their definition is “correct” or not, makes no odds to me. Call yourself a Christian and worship Elvis for all I give a shit. It matters in the socio-political context, however, as there continue to be lobby and special interest groups that claim to speak on behalf of the “majority Christian” country when trying to effect change, so this isn’t entirely academic and it’s not entirely at the behest of the individual either.
Quite, for all the reasons I gave above. If the laity manage to convince the Church hierarchy to change Church policy then great, but until it does people who defy Church doctrine (like using birth control) can’t in good faith call themselves practicing Catholics, as the most fundamental tenet of the Catholic church is doing what it tells you to. If someone wants to call themselves a Catholic whilst doing un-Catholic things I, again for the record, couldn’t care less, as long as they’re keeping their religion to themselves.
It’s a nice idea that everyone can define themselves, but in reality it can’t always be so. I can call myself a woman, a sheep, an alien or even a Christian but it doesn’t make me any of those things. Thinking you know what beliefs Christians hold better than Christians themselves might be a mistake, but it is not necessarily one to think you know what beliefs Christians hold better than people who call themselves Christian.
Dare I say it, but over in the UK if you do say you believe those things you look a little bit weird to most people. Further you are from a big city the less weirdly you’ll be thought of.
Heck, even our Freemasons and Salvation Army, to pick two institutions I know you have as well while nominally being anti-atheist, most members will be cultural C of E in the manner discussed elsewhere in this thread.
By the way, this is starting to become a bit of a theme recently in the media, but not amongst normal people. I do wonder why, I’m not really connected with the chattering classes any more now I am not in London but instead in the middle of the Irish Sea but my instincts are that it’s soemthing that may soon become a matter of conversation just due to all the recent press coverage - and I do hope the establishment has the sense to come down on the side of atheism.
This is preposterous. I realize Christians are a pretty diverse group and there are a lot of issues that true, Bible-believing Christians honestly disagree on, but this is a dealbreaker. If you don’t believe Jesus was the son of God and was physically raised from the dead you’re not a Christian, period. You may think Jesus was a pretty cool guy, you may like the pretty music at church, you may like various things about Christian teachings, but spiritually you’re something else.
This would be like a Muslim saying they’re a Muslim, but they don’t believe Mohammed is Allah’s prophet. It’s impossible.
In other words – this study appears to have spent a lot of time interviewing people who say they’re Christians, but by their own admission are not.
I am inclined to agree, although I did notice at least one Oxford dictionary doesn’t require belief that Jesus is the son of God in its definition for “Christian”. I’m not sure a dictionary is the best place to go for religious definitions though.
That’s kinda the point. It’s not like the pollsters (MORI are a respectable polling organisation, btw) intentionally went out to look for such people who called themselves Christian on the census.
Britain might have a Christian majority, but they’re cultural Christians, not necessarily religious ones.
It is important to remember that the social cost of being “out” as an atheist is huge, from a pure survival standpoint it is much better to “be christian” in the cultural fashion then admit you are an atheist.
No, not remotely. I remember following the Roy Moore 10 Commandments fiasco in Alabama polls showed nearly 70% of all Americans believed that the US laws should be guided by the Ten Commandments.
For that matter Ronald Reagan, America most popular President of the last hapf Century, said the same thing.
Can we assume that you also believe Ronald Reagan and most of the American public want adulterers and pagans executed?
Believe it or not, if you got to know us, you’d learn most Muslims in the West aren’t any more extreme than Jewish and Christian Westernors.
You mean like Christianity and Judaism? Can we assume that you’d object to the Jewish arbitration courts? Particularly since when it comes to divorce they’re vastly more biased against women than any proposed Sharia courts.
I think the issue is not arbitration, it’s if the sharia courts (or any other religious courts) do or could present themselves as outside or above the law. Anyone who disagrees with religious courts effectively giving advice should consider that’s exactly that Christian clergy do too. For many of them offering advice and generally keeping a community together make up the majority of their jobs I expect.
I remember that ICM poll - it’s the same, solo poll that’s been trotted out for six years now - and it was of a couple of hundred self-selected people and the question was something like ‘would you like to see Sharia courts for civil matters in the UK?’ That doesn’t mean wanting polygamy, ritual stoning etc - it would just be financial (since Islam has different rules when it comes to things like interest and contracts) and arbitration.
I can’t find the original poll now - can anyone with better Google-fu find it?
This is definitely not true in the UK. Are you on the right thread?
We really don’t have the same backlash against atheism here for example, the deputy prime minister is atheist; and while I’m not saying I’ve not heard criticism of him, I certainly haven’t come across any on those grounds. On the other hand I did hear criticism of Tony Blair for being openly religious.
I know very few religious people, and I’m related to most of them (one of my aunts married into an Irish Catholic family and converted to Catholicism, and she has a lot of relatives- another Aunt incidenlty converted to Islam).
I know more people who believe in homeopathy, and I went to C of E schools; at the first one, religious education consisted of occasional visits from a delightfully wishy-washy vicar, sometimes with a guitar, when we’d sing slightly wet hymns ( including ‘Kum bah yah’ and once, for some reason ‘Puff the Magic Dragon’, if I remember correctly), and some years, we did a nativity play at the local church (which dated from about the year 1200, and seriously had a secret tunnel from a fake gravestone which ran under my school! Brilliant place), where I once got to dress up as a goose and waddle up the aisle.
My second school, despite being nominally Christian, had a vaguely generic ‘positive message’ daily assembly, which rarely had any mention of a god or any religion at all, and a comparative religion class, at which we spent as much time watching Doctor Who as we did reading bible stories, and we dedicated roughly equal time to all the major religions. I was openly atheist, as were a few of the teachers; I used to regularly argue religion with one of the two openly religious girls in the class. It made no difference. No ostracism, even at a supposedly religious school, as a frankly unpopular teenager.
No one here cares about atheism. I’ve been one my whole life.
The other thing that makes it interesting is that save for a bit of political argy-bargy every now and again - like Catholic adoption agencies getting pissed off with having to rehome children with gay couples - it isn’t really even a topic for discussion.
Certainly in my experience of the UK, most people assume the default position of everyone else (of English ancestry) that they meet is a non-religious person. I personally find myself feeling surprised if someone openly talks about their faith or is a regular worshipper at an institution.
Regular Sunday Church of England churchgoers are usually regarded with a faint whiff of derision and pity, a bit like most Brits regard morris dancers. I say this as someone who was brought up in, and confirmed into, the CofE, and whose parents and sister are still regular worshippers.
My only UK experience is 8 months in Lakenheath in the early 90’s, I met people who were “spiritual but not religious” but not a single atheist, it is a great example of how anecdote is not evidence.
I don’t remember it being nearly as bad as the place I grew up but they were sure handing me around. My mother was episcopal church and our priest had sent a note that I was coming so I was also pushed in the social direction towards those of faith.
But yes, my post was mostly based on poor searching skills on my part and I retract the statement.